NFR Ukraine...Little Did I Know

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FontinalisFin said:
I'm haven't been advocating boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'm saying pay us back if you need or want our help. Looking at our past since Vietnam we lose. No more US blood for world policing if its not a direct threat to the US, or can handle it from a distance. How much Iraqi oil or Afghanistan rare earth minerals are we getting right now?
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I agree with that on the surface but ww2 would have been a lot shorter and less deadly if American had gotten involved in 1939 instead of 1941.. So i see both sides and there is no way i believe Putin is going to stop in Ukraine.
 
Rob Allen said:
I agree with that on the surface but ww2 would have been a lot shorter and less deadly if American had gotten involved in 1939 instead of 1941.. So i see both sides and there is no way i believe Putin is going to stop in Ukraine.
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True, its nuanced, we should be getting involved in the chinese genocide then. I'm just seeing dark days in the future.
 
SurfnFish said:
We have a NATO alliance that requires us to provide military support of an invasion of a NATO country.
We have no such alliance with the Ukraine, and there was never any possibiity that the US would alone enter into a war on it's soil as that would create a direct armed conflict with Russia.
Regarding the sanctions - Putin is betting the NATO countries won't support the most severe sanctions as those would damage their own economies as well, and the next week to two weeks will shape that one way or the other. Meanwhile, The UK has already imposed severe sanctions, Germany has yet to do so due to it's dependence on Russian oil and natural gas, while Italy has declared it will not support stopping luxury exports to the Russian elite...now there's conviction.

The one global tool waiting for more support to implement is denying Russia access to SWIFT, which is the Belguim based monetary transfer system that enables financial instituions around the world to move money. That sanction would have a severe impact on Russia's financial institutions and industries.
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you don't have to have a formal alliance with someone to do the right thing..

Putin already knows everything we might do.. He does not care about the economic costs of his evil actions. No sanctions are going to stop him.. He'll be happy selling his oil to the east instead.

i gotta admit though , seeing the footage of the attacks by SU 35's and I want those ugly things blown out of the sky but that's just my visceral response.
 
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FontinalisFin said:
Iraq was stupid and unjustified,my perspective is, if we went in, make it united states of iraq.
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This makes no sense...What exactly is going on when we 'liberate' another country and in exchange that country gives up its sovereignty and resources in exchange for our 'liberating' them ?
In that scenario you describe we're not actually liberating anything, we're taking over a sovereign nation and stealing their resources.
'Stupid and unjustified' as you so accurately put it, but we'll just go ahead and take over the country anyways and claim their oil as ours.
Positively Putinesque here...
😆
 
Rob Allen said:
I agree with that on the surface but ww2 would have been a lot shorter and less deadly if American had gotten involved in 1939 instead of 1941.. So i see both sides and there is no way i believe Putin is going to stop in Ukraine.
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In ‘39 we were much less prepared for war than we were in December 1941. We had over two years to begin to rebuild our armed forces, which at outbreak of hostilities were the seventh most powerful army in the world before entering the fracas after Pearl Harbor. Even so, we had our ass handed to us by the Germans in North Africa for almost the first year in combat in the European theatre, or Africa as was the case.
Any flights by American F35’s over Ukraine would be an act of war which I hope we don’t get to, yet.
Do you have any idea how long it would take to get any significant number of American forces on the ground in Eastern Europe? What are the chances that would start the nukes flying?
I hope sanctions will work, over time and with Ukraine resolve in fighting the Russians, it’s the best hope for now. When Putin’s fellow oligarchs see their foreign accounts frozen they may decide he needs to go.
 
Mossback said:
This makes no sense...What exactly is going on when we 'liberate' another country and in exchange that country gives up its sovereignty and resources in exchange for our 'liberating' them ?
In that scenario you describe we're not actually liberating anything, we're taking over a sovereign nation and stealing their resources.
'Stupid and unjustified' as you so accurately put it, but we'll just go ahead and take over the country anyways and claim their oil as ours.
Positively Putinesque here...
😆
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They need to pay us back, or we shouldn't do it, unless its to our national security interest.
 
Robert Engleheart said:
In ‘39 we were much less prepared for war than we were in December 1941. We had over two years to begin to rebuild our armed forces, which at outbreak of hostilities were the seventh most powerful army in the world before entering the fracas after Pearl Harbor. Even so, we had our ass handed to us by the Germans in North Africa for almost the first year in combat in the European theatre, or Africa as was the case.
Any flights by American F35’s over Ukraine would be an act of war which I hope we don’t get to, yet.
Do you have any idea how long it would take to get any significant number of American forces on the ground in Eastern Europe? What are the chances that would start the nukes flying?
I hope sanctions will work, over time and with Ukraine resolve in fighting the Russians, it’s the best hope for now. When Putin’s fellow oligarchs see their foreign accounts frozen they may decide he needs to go.
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I hope you are right but I don't think so. I think Putin plans to take eastern Europe Nato or not. He wants this...
 
FontinalisFin said:
I do a festival every summer thats main purpose is to raise money for charity in Ukraine and a few other places. Wonder how thats affecting things this year.
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Not sure, but Ukraine has gotten financial aid in the last 48 hours in the form of 400,000 bitcoin. Will try to find the article.
 
Canuck from Kansas said:
Mission accomplished

ktla.com

Russia seizes control of Chernobyl nuclear site from Ukraine

It was among the most worrying developments on an already shocking day, as Russia invaded Ukraine on Thursday: warfare at the Chernobyl nuclear plant, where radioactivity is still leaking…
ktla.com ktla.com
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Not far away from Chernobyl is the Russian Woodpecker... might not be the right name. Basically its a giant over the horizon billboard radar operating on a very low frequency. Hasnt been used in decades, was featured on Mysteries of the Abandoned. If they can get that thing up and running again, any inbound aircraft from as far away as England will be seen before they're even at cruising altitude. Most of its power came from the reactors at Chernobyl. With them encased in containment, it would be hard to reactivate the radar.
 
I really feel for the Ukrainians and the citizens of the neighboring Baltic states. They will all be Soviets again soon, and everything they've done over the past 30 years to better their nations will become Mother Russia's assets.

Not that there was ever anything we (or anyone else) could do to stop it. Putin's mind was made up, and the costs associated with sanctions were baked into his calculations. As was pointed out early on in the thread, Ukraine is the prize piece of what was the former Soviet Union. Russia's leadership is apparently more than willing to pay the price to take it.

Meanwhile, what of the pain these sanctions will cause here at home? Get ready. A $5 gallon of gas is coming soon to a filling station near you, and I think the question of "why" is becoming a better one every day....
 
FontinalisFin said:
They need to pay us back, or we shouldn't do it, unless its to our national security interest.
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Pretty obvious, a country doesn't go to war unless they determine it's in their interest, national security or otherwise...like we claimed Iraq was, or Putin claims Ukraine is.
😆
 
Shad said:
I really feel for the Ukrainians and the citizens of the neighboring Baltic states. They will all be Soviets again soon, and everything they've done over the past 30 years to better their nations will become Mother Russia's assets.

Not that there was ever anything we (or anyone else) could do to stop it. Putin's mind was made up, and the costs associated with sanctions were baked into his calculations. As was pointed out early on in the thread, Ukraine is the prize piece of what was the former Soviet Union. Russia's leadership is apparently more than willing to pay the price to take it.

Meanwhile, what of the pain these sanctions will cause here at home? Get ready. A $5 gallon of gas is coming soon to a filling station near you, and I think the question of "why" is becoming a better one every day....
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.... And what would your suggestion be?

Be aware, the Baltic states, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, are NATO member states, Putin tries to encroach and Article 5 is invoked.
 
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Our boots on the ground right now is 2SCR, 2nd STRYKER Cavalry Regiment out of Rose Barracks, Vilseck.

For the past 2 years they've been on the road, shuttling between Latvia, Estonia, Poland, and one or two other countries.
Besides attached tube artillery, they've been equipped with the newer Dragoon version of the STRYKER IFV which has a turret with a 30mm auto cannon. ( 2nd Cav. has been known as The Dragoons since they were founded). If there's any other significant ground combat power of ours there , i dont know what it would be.

On their way into Poland, t th the they had to pass in a narrow swath between two Russian signal jammimg units that pretty much ate their comms and navigation for breakfast. Reportedly, the jamming was so strong it actually melted GPS antennas
We've known for at least 3 years that this was a possibility, Now what ??

Update 28 Feb.; 2 SCR is currently in Romania. A brigade of 82nd Airborne are in Poland. Right now , they're all pulled as far back from the borders of those respective countries as possible.
 
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I have family in Ukraine, my mothers hometown(Odessa) was hit with rocket strikes last night.

This war is will undo every piece of good Ukrainians have worked toward for the last 30 years.

I hope the US will be open to accepting Ukrainian Refugees to resettle.
 
wanderingrichard said:
Our boots on the ground right now is 2SCR, 2nd STRYKER Cavalry Regiment out of Rose Barracks, Vilseck.

For the past 2 years they've been on the road, shuttling between Latvia, Estonia, Poland, and one or two other countries.
Besides attached tube artillery, they've been equipped with the newer Dragoon version of the STRYKER IFV which has a turret with a 30mm auto cannon. ( 2nd Cav. has been known as The Dragoons since they were founded). If there's any other significant ground combat power of ours there , i dont know what it would be.

On their way into Poland, t th the they had to pass in a narrow swath between two Russian signal jammimg units that pretty much ate their comms and navigation for breakfast. Reportedly, the jamming was so strong it actually melted GPS antennas
We've known for at least 3 years that this was a possibility, Now what ??
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At the current time there are 64,000 US troops spread among the NATO countries.
The combined forces of the NATO countries outgun the Russians 3 to 1 in every aspect - tanks, heavy artillery, warships, jets and troops.
Regardless of what happens in the Ukraine , Russia will not cross borders into an adjoining NATO country as Putin is more than aware it will automatically trigger provision 5 of the NATO alliance, the key joint defense agreement.
If we can take in millions of immigrants from south of the border, we can certainly take in as many Ukranians as can make it here.
 
Canuck from Kansas said:
.... And what would your suggestion be?

Be aware, the Baltic states, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, are NATO member states, Putin tries to encroach and Article 5 is invoked.
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But, will they have the stomach and resolve to really go after the bully in the school yard?

Putin only knows one thing…
And ya got to wanna hit him below the belt.
 
The issue regarding Ukraine has been simmering for years/decades. IMHO everyone just buried their heads in the sand hoping a war/invasion would not occur. Looking at Putin's past history and his 'annexations' it was inevitable. Either the world needed to help Ukraine more before the inevitable or let them into NATO. NATO was out of the question due to Article 5.

So the answer that they came up with was Sanctions. Whooptido! Sanctions take a fairly long time to have an effect. They are also applied after the fact as punishment and not beforehand as a deterrent and part of the diplomacy tool kit. Sanctions can work when dealing with a country and leader that goes by 'understood/accepted norms'.

Putin is not a leader. He does not care about his citizens nor his country. He cares about his legacy and all the money he steals from the country and it's citizens. By the time he invades and takes over a country/region sanctions are just beginning to be implemented. He already got what he wanted. The fallout does not matter to him. Sanctions hurt the oligarchs, some industries and everyday citizens but not him. The oligarchs are not going to stand up against Putin. Putin provided them those jobs/positions and made them filthy rich. Sanctions are not put, or maybe a very limited basis, on Putin because the world wants to keep the door open to future diplomacy. When was the last time Putin was a trustworthy diplomat? When he was in the KGB!

Putin is a rogue. He defies all norms. Learn from past history. It did not work the last couple of times he 'annexed' areas, Time to change the approach. Place sanctions on him directly and make it hurt. There is already discourse in Russia starting to show up in the streets. Wonders how much more they will take.
 
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