Litter

[Dustin Chromers]

I understand the sentiment. I disagree but I understand the thought. I held the same position for years until I raised kids myself and came to understand the limits of my influence. I am willing to give a lot of grace to parents aftter raising mine and I don't think you can judge someone for someone else's behavior.

Parents do not have as much control or influence as I thought they did prior to parenting. Honestly, once the kid is 12 or so, you just are not that important to them. My children have told me some of the more influential things that I have said or done. Most of these things were very surprising both that they were found to be impactful and what the impact was.

You can screw your child up. I understand the idea that you should be held accoutable if you do. If you smoke crack or hit your spouse, abuse the kids etc. you are in the wrong. These actions will screw them up to some degree. The fact is that they come out of their mother a certain way and the core of who they are born is very difficult to change. I have one child that's uber-confident and calm and one that is anxious and sensitive. These traits started at birth when one was calm and the other was anxious. These traits also have shaped the way that they experience life.

You cannot change the child or "fix" things about the child that you don't like or want. Things that you say or do have effects on kids that you cannot foresee. Minor events can be magnified and major events minimized in your childs brain and you really have no idea that it's happening. Children are not "molded" into the person that they become. They do not respond to rewards and punishment the way that I thought that they do. Parenting is as sloppy as coaching a 5th grade soccer game. You never realy have control. It rarely looks the way that you had envisioned that it would. You can't call timeout and the kids only hear some of what you say.

I have seen well meaning and active parents with kids that got out of control. I have seen parents who held their child accountable as much as possible lose that child to a drug addiction. I have also seen complete dirtbags raise kids who in the end became good people. It is true that parents can screw their kids up and many do. At the same time, I have come to realize that I am not in control of my kids and have not been in a long time. They are their own individual selves who see an interperate the world in their own individual way.

I very respectfully do not agree and appreciate parenting is a tough job with hindsight being useless once experienced. The main thrust of my thought though is if parents aren't accountable for the actions of their minor monster who is? Should society just take it? I don't believe this is right. For every action there is a reaction and every action has a consequence. I've known many bad kids. I grew up with them. There was a common denominator in that they either had overly permissive parents who made excuses for them and insulated them from consequence or heavily strict parents who denied them exposure to the world. Each had a similar result that was negative for society and themselves as a whole. Accountability isn't comfortable or even always fair. But society should not have to tolerate monster children created by choices their parents ultimately made. Accountability isn't a radical concept. It's just a little harsh at times. If you produce a child that is antisocial it is one hundred percent on the people who produced it. Unconditional love and good intentions can make bad people when there are no boundaries and accountability.

 

[Zak]

I very respectfully do not agree and appreciate parenting is a tough job with hindsight being useless once experienced. The main thrust of my thought though is if parents aren't accountable for the actions of their minor monster who is? Should society just take it? I don't believe this is right. For every action there is a reaction and every action has a consequence. I've known many bad kids. I grew up with them. There was a common denominator in that they either had overly permissive parents who made excuses for them and insulated them from consequence or heavily strict parents who denied them exposure to the world. Each had a similar result that was negative for society and themselves as a whole. Accountability isn't comfortable or even always fair. But society should not have to tolerate monster children created by choices their parents ultimately made. Accountability isn't a radical concept. It's just a little harsh at times. If you produce a child that is antisocial it is one hundred percent on the people who produced it. Unconditional love and good intentions can make bad people when there are no boundaries and accountability.

I respectfully disagree, especially with this statement: "If you produce a child that is antisocial it is one hundred percent on the people who produced it."

Nurture plays a big role, to be sure, but nature plays a part as well. Mental illness is a real thing. So are inborn character traits. Don't get me wrong, crappy parenting can mess kids up. But kids can mess up on their own, or have mental health issues that affect thier behavior, even with the best parenting (whatever that is).

 

[RCF]

I respectfully disagree, especially with this statement: "If you produce a child that is antisocial it is one hundred percent on the people who produced it."

Nurture plays a big role, to be sure, but nature plays a part as well. Mental illness is a real thing. So are inborn character traits. Don't get me wrong, crappy parenting can mess kids up. But kids can mess up on their own, or have mental health issues that affect thier behavior, even with the best parenting (whatever that is).

Thank you @Zak for your thoughts. I agree and will add to it. Yes, there is mental illness and inborn character traits but there are also environmental impacts. For example, an adopted child taken away from what they knew, to a country far, far away, may not be able to process and understand everything. Some adapt, some react in a negative way, others become selectively mute. It is not a parental issue causing it, it is the parents and support structure that work hard and provide the support to lessen the impact.

(do not ask me how I know please)

 

[Mossback]

As with most things in life, ascribing fault in the human behavioral realm is not always clear cut and simple.
But it is always easier to fix the blame, and not the problem, so that's what happens.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

I respectfully disagree, especially with this statement: "If you produce a child that is antisocial it is one hundred percent on the people who produced it."

Nurture plays a big role, to be sure, but nature plays a part as well. Mental illness is a real thing. So are inborn character traits. Don't get me wrong, crappy parenting can mess kids up. But kids can mess up on their own, or have mental health issues that affect thier behavior, even with the best parenting (whatever that is).

This is good food for thought. Mental illness is it's own thing for sure and can crop up without a parenting issue. I guess while my statement was absolutist in nature I'm more speaking to the garden variety antisocial behavior lacking a genetic predisposed trait for mental illness. That certainly happens.

 

[WoodseyOwl]

I agree with some of the thoughts above and not with some of the others about raising children but I think a good set of values, love, and a lot of humility (you are going to need it) should be in the mix. But, to the question at hand - litter on the streams and waters- I believe that a good foundation of teaching respect for nature and to think of other people is essential whether the family has a $40,000 craft with high end gear or an air mattress and a Zebco. When I see the garbage I think- who raised you?- regardless of your age or economic circumstances.