SFR Bremerton Otter Assault! (from Seattle Times)

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Jim in Anacortes said:
Well this thread has been fun for me. It's actually been years since I have interacted with the highly educated, pompous , know it all "scientists" that rarely actually bother to listen to a "knuckle dragger". I've seen, many times, the knee jerk reaction of "What are YOUR credentials?". It is sort of an escape mechanism for many of them, when their beliefs (and funding) are being questioned. But let's boil this all down. Go Pro cameras are cheap. Surely these highly educated scientist (working in the field) have accumulated massive amounts of footage showing clearly that reintroducing Sea Otters into a kelp bed has obvious benefits. With all the millions of dollars spent, this should be quite easy for them to display? Right? The truth is that the kelp bed is destroyed, the "scientists" are well paid and the truth is hidden. Now, they will not have the video proof , but they will blurt out "What are YOUR credentials?"
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blogs.oregonstate.edu

Understanding sea otter effects through complexity

By Dominique Kone, Masters Student in Marine Resource Management Species reintroductions are a management strategy to augment the reestablishment or recovery of a locally-extinct or extirpated spec…
blogs.oregonstate.edu
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
Well this thread has been fun for me. It's actually been years since I have interacted with the highly educated, pompous , know it all "scientists" that rarely actually bother to listen to a "knuckle dragger". I've seen, many times, the knee jerk reaction of "What are YOUR credentials?". It is sort of an escape mechanism for many of them, when their beliefs (and funding) are being questioned. But let's boil this all down. Go Pro cameras are cheap. Surely these highly educated scientist (working in the field) have accumulated massive amounts of footage showing clearly that reintroducing Sea Otters into a kelp bed has obvious benefits. With all the millions of dollars spent, this should be quite easy for them to display? Right? The truth is that the kelp bed is destroyed, the "scientists" are well paid and the truth is hidden. Now, they will not have the video proof , but they will blurt out "What are YOUR credentials?"
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Well. But what are your credentials?

Edit: Just so it doesn't become a i'll show you mine if you show me yours type of situation. I have a Bachelors of Art in Design. But unfortunately I forgot to go to my graduation and then I immediately moved like a week later, so I'm not 100% sure if I actually have a diploma. Does that disqualify me from being an expert?
 
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Jim in Anacortes said:
Well this thread has been fun for me. It's actually been years since I have interacted with the highly educated, pompous , know it all "scientists" that rarely actually bother to listen to a "knuckle dragger". I've seen, many times, the knee jerk reaction of "What are YOUR credentials?". It is sort of an escape mechanism for many of them, when their beliefs (and funding) are being questioned. But let's boil this all down. Go Pro cameras are cheap. Surely these highly educated scientist (working in the field) have accumulated massive amounts of footage showing clearly that reintroducing Sea Otters into a kelp bed has obvious benefits. With all the millions of dollars spent, this should be quite easy for them to display? Right? The truth is that the kelp bed is destroyed, the "scientists" are well paid and the truth is hidden. Now, they will not have the video proof , but they will blurt out "What are YOUR credentials?"
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Surely the noble commercial fishermen, what with their skin in the game and humility, have documented the destruction of caused by sea otters with their gopros?

The reason I and others are wondering about your credentials is that you're offering opinions as fact. Zero evidence, not a picture or an article or a quote or anything other than your feelings about sea otters. If this were court, youd have to testify to your credentials to have your opinion treated as anything other than that, your opinion. This is court of public opinion and the same standard applies.

Youre currently the best thing going on PNWFF, so add that to your credentials! Its just that your argument sucks and doesnt make sense or hold water at all.
 
If my efforts in this thread have caused any reader to pause and think about why reintroducing Sea Otters may or may not be a good idea than, IMHO, my efforts have been worthwhile. If nothing else it's been a wild ride. No?
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
If my efforts in this thread have caused any reader to pause and think about why reintroducing Sea Otters may or may not be a good idea than, IMHO, my efforts have been worthwhile.
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Yes. Several of us have thought about it. Mission accomplished.
 
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My beef is with estuary otters. They've got the best of me on at least three occasions. Two linked below and one unreported incident (well inside the rod tip) at a well known MA 11 SRC spot.

IHFISH

Post in thread 'Puget Sound'

The sound and canal are not immune from April Fool's shenanigans. I was congratulating myself for choosing beach #1 as a couple of giant SRC started crashing salmon fry shortly after first light, but they were able to use the time it took me to scamper down to their location to don hyper-realistic otter costumes. Things turned out alright though because the rock I thought I hung up on at beach #2 quickly turned out to be a personal best SRC in fantastic shape, especially for this time of year.

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IHFISH

Post in thread 'Puget Sound'

No dogs at any of beaches I hit yesterday, but I did get low-holed something fierce a couple of times by a local otter. One of the times he came barreling down the beach, jumped in and popped up about a rod and half length in front of me. If you can't beat em, join 'em I guess.
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Canuck from Kansas said:
I will also say there is nothing more thrilling than getting data that is solid and reproducible that counters the operating paradigm. It doesn't happen often, but if/when it does, there is nothing more exciting. You can't wait to present it, you cannot wait to submit it for publication - it can be a career changer, in a good way.

c
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then you submit it to an ornithology journal and you realize the reviewers are among the most nit-picky, inbred, unimaginative dullards that ever lived. Some scientists have spent decades in mud (literal and figurative) doing field work with a limited audience and large vats of time to scaffold whole belief systems around their suffering that they themselves become the mud. The transference is complete, they might turn into insufferable, petty, jealous boors.

(yeah obviously take that with a grain of salt, it's a little fluffed for effect, but anyone who has had good paper(s) rejected for dumb reasons feels a small sting, part of the business, thick skin helps, but then again, ornithologists..... ugh.....:LOL:)
Tallguy said:
What never, ever makes sense to me is how the "giant science/research conspiracy" folks think there is actually any real money worth lying over in science and research. There are instances of lying and coverups in science, but usually that happens because somebody is trying to protect their ego and reputation, not make bank (sometimes young scientist fake data to try and get a job. Though when found out, by a field trained as professional skeptics and critics, their career is over, so very risky). Reputation is more treasured than money by many researchers.

If it's all about lying for money, you would be hugely stupid to pick science and research, that's lying for pennies when real dollars for you are scattered, and offered, all around you. Why not pick industry, make 3X salary (drive an Acura/BMW/Mercedes) and spend 25 years saying Exxon Valdez/Deep water horizon was harmless, housing development XYZ will have absolutely no effect on the local river, pesticides/BPA/plastics are totally safe for humans, and all those oil and natural gas wells are completely harmless for everyone and everything? Why not work on Wall Street (Ferrari and Lambo) and start a hedge fund so you can buy three houses in the Hamptons? Why not jump into crypto, at least the you have a private jet and can buy your own island in the Bahamas.
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Charlatans have been around since the beginning of time
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There is a point where the venn diagrams of science and industry overlap and bullshit science becomes massive profit. The sacklers and the opiate crisis, the aggressive marketing of gabapentin, the use of decongestants, there's a multitude of other examples, and many of them would have been prevented by fair and honest reviews at the first stages of publication/reporting.

As much as this is obviously fiction, there's a kernal of truth threading through the whole thing that makes it such a great movie. One of the best scenes in a film stacked with start to finish awesomeness:
 
Tallguy said:
What never, ever makes sense to me is how the "giant science/research conspiracy" folks think there is actually any real money worth lying over in science and research. There are instances of lying and coverups in science, but usually that happens because somebody is trying to protect their ego and reputation, not make bank (sometimes young scientist fake data to try and get a job. Though when found out, by a field trained as professional skeptics and critics, their career is over, so very risky). Reputation is more treasured than money by many researchers.
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....which is basis for the old statement regarding research academia, "The fights are so vicious because the stakes are so very small".

I've personally witnessed lifelong feuds between eminent limnologists over research disputes (none of which involved allegations of falsification but rather the validity of conceptual interpretation of data) that would appear to be exceedingly trivial to lay people.

The appearance or prospect of disrespect from peers is often a much more powerful motivator than money for tightly knit fraternities, whether they be research scientists, Hells Angels, Contract Bridge players, PNWFF forum members, or Marine Corps fire teams.

Humans are, at their heart, tribal animals.
 
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krusty said:
....which is basis for the old statement regarding research academia, "The fights are so vicious because the stakes are so very small".

I've personally witnessed lifelong feuds between eminent limnologists over research disputes (none of which involved allegations of falsification but rather the conceptual interpretation of data) that would appear to be exceedingly trivial to lay people.
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Boot: Krusty? Sure, I know Krusty. He's what I would describe as Limnologist's Limnologist...
Tallguy: What's a Limnologist anyway?
Boot: I think they help you lose weight, the provenance being from latin Slimnologist
Tallguy: Yeah, Boot, I am pretty sure you're full of shit on that one
Boot: Yeah but you can absolutely picture a world with Slimnologists, no?
Tallguy: the correct term is Bariatrician
Boot: A "reputable" Slimnologist would have their own line of products- oils, shakes, lotions, diets, cleanses, thinning ointments
Tallguy: And a economic model relying on Pyramid sales. I gotta say, I'm Having a hard time picturing Krusty with a Garage full of thinning ointments and cleansing products.
Boot: yeah, I agree, he's probably more in the Limnology camp than the Slimnology one
Tallguy: On the other hand Krusty's smart enough to sit at the top of a Pyramid scheme for sure
Boot: yeah, absolutely agree on that.... probably done his homework on the viabilities of a Fecal Transplant and Chakra-orienting retreat for net high worth individuals
 
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