After ‘horror show’ hiker rescues, N.H. asks whether criminal charges are the next frontier

[DerekWhipple]

It would be interesting to see how many support student loan bailout and other entitlement programs but not rescue in an emergency.

Apples to oranges. In the 90's when I was visiting colleges, some administration person told a crowd of prospective students and parents "It doesn't matter what your major is, a college degree will get you a job. Just go to college." I'm not paraphrasing. Are rangers actively encouraging people to hike bright angel trail in the summer in heels with no water?

Of course I think people should be rescued, but it seems like SAR folks are starting to be pushed to a breaking point.

There is a term I've heard called "Main Character Syndrome", and a lot of people have it. They are at the center of the universe in some sort of video game/simulation, and it's inconceivable that any harm will ever come to them, no matter what they do. It's the same reason why so many people are gored by bison. You would think a 2000lb animal should be given a wide berth, but some dumb dumb wants to touch it every year.

 

[cdnred]

Read the article. Am stunned that the two guys the rescued didn't say thank you and didn't apologize for what they put people through. The first thing one of the guys said was "I want to talk to my lawyer."

Some people just don't get it. Like the hiker who needed to be rescued on two consecutive days.

Read the article and was surprised that he said "telling the newspaper in a story published Tuesday that he was an experienced hiker but had underestimated the difficult conditions". Obviously shit happens but I don't feel he's all that experienced in my opinion (may have a case of over confidence) if he needs to get rescued 2 days in a row..

 

[Brian Miller]

Honestly, what gives me the willies, is trail runners.
I mentioned over at the other forum when this came up while my 60 year old brother and I (61) were on a 4-day fishing trip to Necklace Valley in 2014

East Fork Foss - Necklace Valley

The Necklace Valley makes a wonderful 2-3 night backpack trip for hearty hikers, and rewards with cool alpine lakes to swim and fish in, or just camp beside. Or take a day trip along the East Fork Foss River admire the amazing second-growth tree canopy.

www.wta.org

A team of Mountain Rescue volunteers passed by our camp. They asked if we had seen a guy they were looking for; an elite European world-class climber that was overdue. He and a partner had a plan to run from Snoqualmie <---> Stevens Pass; one starting from each pass would meet up halfway and swap car keys. That afternoon we saw a chopper headed north out of the valley. Later that evening with about 2 hours of daylight left the team passed by our camp again on the way out. The Rescue team had a 9+ mile hike out ahead of them.

In July 2018 I (65) and 3 friends (56-58) were midway through a clockwise Mt Rainier Northern Loop trip. Heavy snow pack and snowmelt had swollen and washed out the log bridge over the West Fork White River. Two days before we were due to cross this occurred...

Two Backcountry Deaths Lead Mount Rainier National Park To Caution Hikers

Two backcountry travelers recently died in Mount Rainier National Park when they fell into streams swollen by runoff, prompting park staff to remind hikers that streams are running fast, full, and dangerous.

www.nationalparkstraveler.org

The story doesn't mention two other hikers with the deceased were also swept downstream. They didn't die but one lost his pack.
We found out about the incident just after this crossing of Winthrop Creek (also mentioned in the story) with an intact (sort of) bridge. The last few feet of this crossing created quite the pucker factor.


We decided to abort the last leg of our trip and head out via the Carbon River.

The following day just after crossing this relatively nice bridge

we met a group of women trail runners outfitted with running packs like these ladies, on their way to Mowich; about a 16 mile trip with a few glacial creek crossings.

They seemed undaunted by our report and were going to make those crossings (and apparently did) with no trekking poles, an absolute minimum of food, water, clothing, & survival gear. They either had received favorable trail reports or had more balls than we did.

 

[_WW_]

@Dustin Chromers , @_WW_ , , @Salmo_g including your (grand)children?

Yup!

 

[GAT]

Obviously if everyone would just stay the hell off my mountains and far away from my rivers, there would be no problems.

I tend to lean toward what these guys say. They seem to be in the position of the most experienced with the situations:

MOUNTAIN RESCUE ASSOCIATION REAFFIRMS ITS POSITION
OPPOSING CHARGING SUBJECTS FOR THE COSTS OF THEIR RESCUES
Rescue Leaders say Charging for Rescues Can Lead to Delays in the Call
for Help, and Can Put Rescuers in Greater Danger,

 

[Brian Miller]

@Dustin Chromers , @_WW_ , , @Salmo_g including your (grand)children?

Yup!

 

[Long_Rod_Silvers]

We found out about the incident just after this crossing of Winthrop Creek (also mentioned in the story) with an intact (sort of) bridge. The last few feet of this crossing created quite the pucker factor.

View attachment 35132
We decided to abort the last leg of our trip and head out via the Carbon River.

The following day just after crossing this relatively nice bridge

we met a group of women trail runners outfitted with running packs like these ladies, on their way to Mowich; about a 16 mile trip with a few glacial creek crossings.

They seemed undaunted by our report and were going to make those crossings (and apparently did) with no trekking poles, an absolute minimum of food, water, clothing, & survival gear. They either had received favorable trail reports or had more balls than we did.

Man, you got balls...that winthrop creek crossing looks sketchy AF. If they had bigger balls than you I'm not sure how they'd be good trail runners. Balls that huge would get in the way.

 

[Otter]

MOUNTAIN RESCUE ASSOCIATION REAFFIRMS ITS POSITION
OPPOSING CHARGING SUBJECTS FOR THE COSTS OF THEIR RESCUES
Rescue Leaders say Charging for Rescues Can Lead to Delays in the Call
for Help, and Can Put Rescuers in Greater Danger,

That’s what I read many times from B.C.’s search & rescue services. Charging for rescue is a hard “no”. It makes sense to me. If an injured person won’t call for help while there’s still daylight, then finally calls in panic as it begins to get dark, that makes the operation FAR more dangerous, because they go ASAP. Can you imagine doing that already-dangerous work at night?

 

[_WW_]

No grandchildren to worry about and my kids ain't stupid. We do have a loved one in the hospital that has chosen to let nature takes its course - which means he'll be dead in a week or so. Maybe that is tempering my response in some way, but I have always thought like Salmo. Being stupid should hurt. Sticking your hand in the fire will burn you. That's how most of us learn...or die.

 

[Brian Miller]

...We do have a loved one in the hospital that has chosen to let nature takes its course - which means he'll be dead in a week or so....

I'm very sorry to hear about your loved one. I hope his passing will be peaceful, with loved ones able to share with him how much he's enriched their lives, and that all who hold him dear will be comforted in their grieving.

 

[cdnred]

Talking about hikers and climbers under estimating difficult conditions, I came across this story today..

British man rescued from Mont Blanc after spending night at 10,000ft

Rescuers were in utter disbelief to discover the man, wearing nothing but hiking boots, a tracksuit and draped in a sheet, was still alive after being trapped in sub zero temperatures all night

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Long_Rod_Silvers]

Talking about hikers and climbers underestimating difficult conditions, I came across this story today..

British man rescued from Mont Blanc after spending night at 10,000ft

Rescuers were in utter disbelief to discover the man, wearing nothing but hiking boots, a tracksuit and draped in a sheet, was still alive after being trapped in sub zero temperatures all night

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Matt B]

Talking about hikers and climbers under estimating difficult conditions, I came across this story today..

British man rescued from Mont Blanc after spending night at 10,000ft

Rescuers were in utter disbelief to discover the man, wearing nothing but hiking boots, a tracksuit and draped in a sheet, was still alive after being trapped in sub zero temperatures all night

www.dailymail.co.uk

A graduate aerospace engineer…this guy could design the next airplane you ride in! It’s like the old one that goes, What do you call the guy who graduates last in his class from med school? — Doctor!

 

[Dave G]

I was out hiking near Goldmyer Hot Springs with a few friends when we came across a trail runner dressed in shorts and a nylon shirt (it was mid-50s and rainy at the time). From what I could see he didn't have even the most basic emergency gear with him.

I wonder if he gave a moment's thought about being one twisted ankle away from death... Even with a sat phone to call for help he would have been severely (possibly fatally) hypothermic by the time help could respond. I don't want to paint the guy as self-centered., since I don't know anything about him. My sense is that he felt confident (and potentially over-confident). Shit does happen, and putting oneself in harm's way like he did seems plain dumb.

Imposing a competency test as a prerequisite to entry into a wilderness area is unthinkable. Likewise requiring people to buy trip insurance seems wrong.

Permit fees are typically imposed to cover the administrative costs of managing the area. If S&R costs continue to climb, is it unfair for them to be part of the fee-setting equation?

Failing that, I wonder whether there's potential for cost recovery via civil suit for negligence on the part of the rescued party. Doesn't our legal system address the consequences from one's negligence causing harm (financial or otherwise) to another ?

 

[Brian Miller]

Imposing a competency test as a prerequisite to entry into a wilderness area is unthinkable. Likewise requiring people to buy trip insurance seems wrong.

I vaguely recall back in the day to do a private summit climb of Rainier that when picking up a climbing permit that you had to present yourself and gear for inspection. And a few years ago on a fishing trip to Seven Lakes Basin the party had to show Rangers when picking up the permit in PA that we had enough hard sided bear canisters (my Ursack wasn't accepted) for the number of people and days they planned to be out.
So it is possible a competency screen is possible, but are USFS, NPS, (DNR...) and the public willing to require checkins with permits and staff at offices near trailheads patrolling trails to enforce permits?

 

[Zak]

I vaguely recall back in the day to do a private summit climb of Rainier that when picking up a climbing permit that you had to present yourself and gear for inspection. And a few years ago on a fishing trip to Seven Lakes Basin the party had to show Rangers when picking up the permit in PA that we had enough hard sided bear canisters (my Ursack wasn't accepted) for the number of people and days they planned to be out.
So it is possible a competency screen is possible, but are USFS, NPS, (DNR...) and the public willing to require checkins with permits and staff at offices near trailheads patrolling trails to enforce permits?

Get them patrolling trailheads and I'll feel safer about parking my car and walking away from it!

 

[Dave G]

I vaguely recall back in the day to do a private summit climb of Rainier that when picking up a climbing permit that you had to present yourself and gear for inspection. And a few years ago on a fishing trip to Seven Lakes Basin the party had to show Rangers when picking up the permit in PA that we had enough hard sided bear canisters (my Ursack wasn't accepted) for the number of people and days they planned to be out.
So it is possible a competency screen is possible, but are USFS, NPS, (DNR...) and the public willing to require checkins with permits and staff at offices near trailheads patrolling trails to enforce permits?

Do the USFS or S&R organizations consider this a problem where none might actually exist (other than our sense that it isn't right)?

 

[Brian Miller]

Do the USFS or S&R organizations consider this a problem where none might actually exist (other than our sense that it isn't right)?

When I got a call in the evening for an 0-early thirty rendezvous at an assembly area - CP and had to ask-notify my boss of the mission I knew there was a problem. And I believe the Mountain Rescue wilderness hiker-climber education & training programs acknowledge a problem exists that they want to reduce. I a believe the USFS-NPS know there is a problem that because S&R ops hit their budgets. But unfortunately the cost of staffing to a level that can implement an education and enforcement program that much of the public would probably find onerous prevents them from taking any effective action to reduce it.