Non-Fly When the tuna are being funky while keyed-in on small bait

[Nick Clayton]

Does using a sink tip work better than just having a mooching weight ahead of the fly? Perhaps it tracks different in the water and imparts action?

Just my opinion, but yes.

I believe the longer sinking line keeps the fly tracking under the water better in chop, and I believe adding weight somehow changes the presentation though I've yet to determine how.

As I've done more and more fly trips and consistently gotten bit better trolling flies vs the boats trolling gear all of our other captains have experimented a lot with ways to add flies into their troll spread with standard gear.
As such I've had side by side comparisons where our flies (same flies) were bit at a much higher rate fished with the sinking lines vs the other boats trolling flies on standard gear by adding weight in various ways. Adding weight can also add to some annoying complications when dealing with tangles and such, which is another small advantage to running some sort of sink tip.

The downside of running sink tips on gear rods, aside from the extra effort to get it all rigged up, is the cost. Especially chartering, the likelihood of an inexperienced angler not following their fish and cutting off a sink tip is fairly high. On a sport boat with a few experienced anglers this wouldn't be such an issue. Funny enough this could potentially be offset some by tying flies. Its silly to suggest tying flies can really save someone money, but when compared to the cost of buying 10-20$ or more trolling lures, home tied flies are pretty damn cheap.

 

[Evan B]

Just my opinion, but yes.

I believe the longer sinking line keeps the fly tracking under the water better in chop, and I believe adding weight somehow changes the presentation though I've yet to determine how.

As I've done more and more fly trips and consistently gotten bit better trolling flies vs the boats trolling gear all of our other captains have experimented a lot with ways to add flies into their troll spread with standard gear.
As such I've had side by side comparisons where our flies (same flies) were bit at a much higher rate fished with the sinking lines vs the other boats trolling flies on standard gear by adding weight in various ways. Adding weight can also add to some annoying complications when dealing with tangles and such, which is another small advantage to running some sort of sink tip.

The downside of running sink tips on gear rods, aside from the extra effort to get it all rigged up, is the cost. Especially chartering, the likelihood of an inexperienced angler not following their fish and cutting off a sink tip is fairly high. On a sport boat with a few experienced anglers this wouldn't be such an issue. Funny enough this could potentially be offset some by tying flies. Its silly to suggest tying flies can really save someone money, but when compared to the cost of buying 10-20$ or more trolling lures, home tied flies are pretty damn cheap.

What do you think the best connection from my main line to sink tip would be on the trolling rod? I want to keep that connection as streamlined as possible.

 

[Nick Clayton]

What do you think the best connection from my main line to sink tip would be on the trolling rod? I want to keep that connection as streamlined as possible.

Actually spent a fair amount of time discussing this very thing with the captain I was along with over the weekend and honestly if it were me I'd likely just try to run braid to the sink tip and just attach with an RP knot. Goes thru fly guides just fine so shouldn't be an issue on a trolling rod. My next thought would be a braided loop connection but I think a standard RP or similar would be fine.

That's how I rig up my downriggers. 300 lb braid or whatever, RP knotted onto a length of tuna cord to the clip. The knot acts as the stopper. Works great and we run 20 lb balls exclusively and have never seen that connection fail. I use the braid to fly line RP connection on my fly reels with no issue either. To me that would be the cleanest and simplest solution.

 

[Brute]

I’ve never fished for albacore’s, but I’m guessing it’s not that dissimilar to fishing small school ahi or aku. On my boat, when approaching a bird pile and the school tunas were boat shy, we would fish a small jet on the center rigger way, way back and have daisy chains on the outriggers with jets behind them…slow turns to keep the boat away from the pile, but try to get the center rigger bait to intercept the fish…

 

[Pink Nighty]

What do you think the best connection from my main line to sink tip would be on the trolling rod? I want to keep that connection as streamlined as possible.

I would tie a large double surgeons loop (like 8") in the braid and then loop to loop to the t14. The long loop will keep the knot away from your connection. I find if I tie a short loop it catches in the tip more. The knot ticks the guide and makes a little hinge, which can catch the loop to loop. Having a longer loop let's you overcome the hinge by the time the loop to loop hits the guides.

Btw I find this whole plan highly stoke inducing.

@Nick Clayton how long of heads are they planning on running, and what kinds of leaders? Will they need to leave space on the reel for the t14? Or will they leave it short enough that it doesnt make the reel?

 

[Evan B]

I was hoping to keep my top shot intact - partially because I want to be able to easily switch back to trolling other stuff if needed, and partially because I like having a section of mono to stretch and absorb some shock.

 

[SilverFly]

I was hoping to keep my top shot intact - partially because I want to be able to easily switch back to trolling other stuff if needed, and partially because I like having a section of mono to stretch and absorb some shock.

Not sure how much an issue shock absorbing would be with much smaller fly hooks vs standard troll gear hooks. I typically don't run a tight drag on fly gear, and don't loose many troll grabs. Most saltwater fly hooks are pretty strong, but safe to say they aren't designed for trolling on conventional gear. Live bait hooks work well as fly hooks if that is a concern.

 

[Tuna Ball]

Well, I don't have a sink tip so this is the best I can do with what I have for tomorrow. I tied up this fly to test drive. It is not as elegant as your guys stuff but probably okay at trolling speeds.

 

[SilverFly]

Well, I don't have a sink tip so this is the best I can do with what I have for tomorrow. I tied up this fly to test drive. It is not as elegant as your guys stuff but probably okay at trolling speeds.

View attachment 79989

Those colors will never work.

 

[Tuna Ball]

Those colors will never work.

Especially with overcast skies. Hehe

I incorporated a hackle feather from one of our naughty roosters. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.....

 

[Matt B]

Especially with overcast skies. Hehe

I incorporated a hackle feather from one of our naughty roosters. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.....

That's a nice touch

 

[Nick Clayton]

I would tie a large double surgeons loop (like 8") in the braid and then loop to loop to the t14. The long loop will keep the knot away from your connection. I find if I tie a short loop it catches in the tip more. The knot ticks the guide and makes a little hinge, which can catch the loop to loop. Having a longer loop let's you overcome the hinge by the time the loop to loop hits the guides.

Btw I find this whole plan highly stoke inducing.

@Nick Clayton how long of heads are they planning on running, and what kinds of leaders? Will they need to leave space on the reel for the t14? Or will they leave it short enough that it doesnt make the reel?

They'll be running 30' T14 heads with leaders short enough to keep out of reel. In this specific case anyway, room on the reel will not be an issue.

 

[Nick Clayton]

IMO in these situations its really not so much about the fish being boat shy, but more about them their feeding behavior and lack of interest in food something that isn't what they are focused on.

Used to see this a lot. As the season progressed the fish would get more and more focused on small stuff, and would respond less and less to our typical troll gear. We'd have to downsize as best we could and it would still not often work well. I remember one year in particular when I was deckhanding where we were running micro hoochies, like the type many folks use to fish over the top of their swivels up the line, and running them behind 3 oz banana leads and it was about the only thing we could get them to eat on the troll. The banana leads caused a lot of issues though.

The last three or four seasons I haven't seen that shift as much, but this year it seems strong again. The fish were definitely moving quickly and feeding on the saurie where they found them, but they weren't exactly running from the boat either. Many times over the weekend we hooked fish as we trolled right through jumper patches that weren't anxious to get out of the way. Of course those same fish couldn't be bothered to eat anything we showed them if we slid in and started casting while we could see piles of them under the boat. They weren't shy bearing near us, but they also weren't impressed with what we were showing them. When I see that scenario it reminds me a lot of how the sea run cutthroat can get during the peak of the chum fry outmigration on the south sound. There is just so much food for them basically around the clock that they get lazy in their feeding, they won't eat a damn thing other than chum fry, and they aren't likely to pick off a single chum fry pattern out of the 100 million naturals. It gets tough and I've yet to crack it.

But to be perfectly honest, that's easy fishing with live bait. Even though they are feeding on small saurie they have no problem gobbling anchovies. Both days I was out over the weekend, pulling my hair out trying to figure out why these fish wouldn't eat cast flies, all our other boats loaded up and went home early with live bait. They weren't getting bit on the troll well, but once they did or once they were able to slide into some jumpers and start fishing bait it was game over. IMO it's much more to do with artificial stuff when they get in that mood. I've seen them eat jigs well in that scenario and I tend to think depth plays a part there. Fly fishing wise I still strongly believe that going super small is the best way to get some fish, but over the weekend I really didn't have any of the 1-2" stuff thats worked for me in the past in those scenarios since I really haven't had to go that route in a few years. I don't know much about jigs, but I wonder if fishing some really small jigs might be worth a shot in that scenario.

 

[Brute]

IMO in these situations its really not so much about the fish being boat shy, but more about them their feeding behavior and lack of interest in food something that isn't what they are focused on.

Used to see this a lot. As the season progressed the fish would get more and more focused on small stuff, and would respond less and less to our typical troll gear. We'd have to downsize as best we could and it would still not often work well. I remember one year in particular when I was deckhanding where we were running micro hoochies, like the type many folks use to fish over the top of their swivels up the line, and running them behind 3 oz banana leads and it was about the only thing we could get them to eat on the troll. The banana leads caused a lot of issues though.

The last three or four seasons I haven't seen that shift as much, but this year it seems strong again. The fish were definitely moving quickly and feeding on the saurie where they found them, but they weren't exactly running from the boat either. Many times over the weekend we hooked fish as we trolled right through jumper patches that weren't anxious to get out of the way. Of course those same fish couldn't be bothered to eat anything we showed them if we slid in and started casting while we could see piles of them under the boat. They weren't shy bearing near us, but they also weren't impressed with what we were showing them. When I see that scenario it reminds me a lot of how the sea run cutthroat can get during the peak of the chum fry outmigration on the south sound. There is just so much food for them basically around the clock that they get lazy in their feeding, they won't eat a damn thing other than chum fry, and they aren't likely to pick off a single chum fry pattern out of the 100 million naturals. It gets tough and I've yet to crack it.

But to be perfectly honest, that's easy fishing with live bait. Even though they are feeding on small saurie they have no problem gobbling anchovies. Both days I was out over the weekend, pulling my hair out trying to figure out why these fish wouldn't eat cast flies, all our other boats loaded up and went home early with live bait. They weren't getting bit on the troll well, but once they did or once they were able to slide into some jumpers and start fishing bait it was game over. IMO it's much more to do with artificial stuff when they get in that mood. I've seen them eat jigs well in that scenario and I tend to think depth plays a part there. Fly fishing wise I still strongly believe that going super small is the best way to get some fish, but over the weekend I really didn't have any of the 1-2" stuff thats worked for me in the past in those scenarios since I really haven't had to go that route in a few years. I don't know much about jigs, but I wonder if fishing some really small jigs might be worth a shot in that scenario.

Maybe try throwing live bait like the old aku boat fleets in Hawaii…the bait would run back to the safety of the boat while the crew threw aku flies overboard

 

[Nick Clayton]

Maybe try throwing live bait like the old aku boat fleets in Hawaii…the bait would run back to the safety of the boat while the crew threw aku flies overboard

Oh yes, using live bait as part of our arsenal is a part of every trip out there

 

[Matt B]

IMO in these situations its really not so much about the fish being boat shy, but more about them their feeding behavior and lack of interest in food something that isn't what they are focused on.

Used to see this a lot. As the season progressed the fish would get more and more focused on small stuff, and would respond less and less to our typical troll gear. We'd have to downsize as best we could and it would still not often work well. I remember one year in particular when I was deckhanding where we were running micro hoochies, like the type many folks use to fish over the top of their swivels up the line, and running them behind 3 oz banana leads and it was about the only thing we could get them to eat on the troll. The banana leads caused a lot of issues though.

The last three or four seasons I haven't seen that shift as much, but this year it seems strong again. The fish were definitely moving quickly and feeding on the saurie where they found them, but they weren't exactly running from the boat either. Many times over the weekend we hooked fish as we trolled right through jumper patches that weren't anxious to get out of the way. Of course those same fish couldn't be bothered to eat anything we showed them if we slid in and started casting while we could see piles of them under the boat. They weren't shy bearing near us, but they also weren't impressed with what we were showing them. When I see that scenario it reminds me a lot of how the sea run cutthroat can get during the peak of the chum fry outmigration on the south sound. There is just so much food for them basically around the clock that they get lazy in their feeding, they won't eat a damn thing other than chum fry, and they aren't likely to pick off a single chum fry pattern out of the 100 million naturals. It gets tough and I've yet to crack it.

But to be perfectly honest, that's easy fishing with live bait. Even though they are feeding on small saurie they have no problem gobbling anchovies. Both days I was out over the weekend, pulling my hair out trying to figure out why these fish wouldn't eat cast flies, all our other boats loaded up and went home early with live bait. They weren't getting bit on the troll well, but once they did or once they were able to slide into some jumpers and start fishing bait it was game over. IMO it's much more to do with artificial stuff when they get in that mood. I've seen them eat jigs well in that scenario and I tend to think depth plays a part there. Fly fishing wise I still strongly believe that going super small is the best way to get some fish, but over the weekend I really didn't have any of the 1-2" stuff thats worked for me in the past in those scenarios since I really haven't had to go that route in a few years. I don't know much about jigs, but I wonder if fishing some really small jigs might be worth a shot in that scenario.

Could you please post up some of the small flies you‘re talking about?

 

[EB590]

Right now my solution is going to be to experiment running a section of sink tip on a conventional troll rod. This late in the season, the troll bite does tend to go this way... So I want to be ready with a solution that will get me running smaller stuff like this, and have it be effective. I think this could work well going that route. Just need to figure out the best method of connecting my 50lb mono topshot to the sink tip without it being too bulky to reel in to the guides. A loop-to-loop would be great, just need a mono loop that isn't super square.

Strip the tungsten off of a longish section of the sink tip then bimini twist? To bimini twist on 50# mono?

It would waste a lot of the time section but I would imagine it would go through the guides.

 

[Nick Clayton]

Could you please post up some of the small flies you‘re talking about?

I've tied a lot of different stuff but this simple pattern has been my most successful. I've never once had truly wide open albacore fly fishing when they're behaving as they are right now, but I've found this fly to at least produce semi regularly.

This one is olive/yellow because we were seeing saurie of that color one particular season, but tied in more blue/grey/silver colors has done well when they're eating small saurie of the color that are typically out there.

This one is on an Owner Aki hook and is maybe 1 1/2" overall length. Some congo hair and a little flash.

 

[Evan B]

IMO in these situations its really not so much about the fish being boat shy, but more about them their feeding behavior and lack of interest in food something that isn't what they are focused on.

Used to see this a lot. As the season progressed the fish would get more and more focused on small stuff, and would respond less and less to our typical troll gear. We'd have to downsize as best we could and it would still not often work well. I remember one year in particular when I was deckhanding where we were running micro hoochies, like the type many folks use to fish over the top of their swivels up the line, and running them behind 3 oz banana leads and it was about the only thing we could get them to eat on the troll. The banana leads caused a lot of issues though.

The last three or four seasons I haven't seen that shift as much, but this year it seems strong again. The fish were definitely moving quickly and feeding on the saurie where they found them, but they weren't exactly running from the boat either. Many times over the weekend we hooked fish as we trolled right through jumper patches that weren't anxious to get out of the way. Of course those same fish couldn't be bothered to eat anything we showed them if we slid in and started casting while we could see piles of them under the boat. They weren't shy bearing near us, but they also weren't impressed with what we were showing them. When I see that scenario it reminds me a lot of how the sea run cutthroat can get during the peak of the chum fry outmigration on the south sound. There is just so much food for them basically around the clock that they get lazy in their feeding, they won't eat a damn thing other than chum fry, and they aren't likely to pick off a single chum fry pattern out of the 100 million naturals. It gets tough and I've yet to crack it.

But to be perfectly honest, that's easy fishing with live bait. Even though they are feeding on small saurie they have no problem gobbling anchovies. Both days I was out over the weekend, pulling my hair out trying to figure out why these fish wouldn't eat cast flies, all our other boats loaded up and went home early with live bait. They weren't getting bit on the troll well, but once they did or once they were able to slide into some jumpers and start fishing bait it was game over. IMO it's much more to do with artificial stuff when they get in that mood. I've seen them eat jigs well in that scenario and I tend to think depth plays a part there. Fly fishing wise I still strongly believe that going super small is the best way to get some fish, but over the weekend I really didn't have any of the 1-2" stuff thats worked for me in the past in those scenarios since I really haven't had to go that route in a few years. I don't know much about jigs, but I wonder if fishing some really small jigs might be worth a shot in that scenario.

Jigs worked awesome for us on Saturday. 1 on the troll, 13 casting jigs to the jumpers. Wouldn't have had a day without them.

 

[Matt B]

I've tied a lot of different stuff but this simple pattern has been my most successful. I've never once had truly wide open albacore fly fishing when they're behaving as they are right now, but I've found this fly to at least produce semi regularly.

This one is olive/yellow because we were seeing saurie of that color one particular season, but tied in more blue/grey/silver colors has done well when they're eating small saurie of the color that are typically out there.

This one is on an Owner Aki hook and is maybe 1 1/2" overall length. Some congo hair and a little flash.

View attachment 79995

View attachment 79996

Thanks. Crazy to think something so small can work like that out there at all.