NFR "The Hypocrite" TGR film about advocacy/fossil fuels/Outdoor State

[SurfnFish]

some historical context for where we are today, and plenty of reporting and documentaries available to provide the facts....in the sole interest of future profits, General Motors, Henry Ford and Roy Firestone (tires) spent what were at the time immense fortunes to kill a planned extensive railway system in the US. They did this by buying up critical easements across the country that the railways needed to make route lines work, bought politicians for initiative funding no votes, and pounced on every city, state or national attempt to introduce non-vehicle mass transit that would threaten profits on gas, tires and cars.

"The answer to all your questions, Sparky, is money"

 

[SSPey]

This film gets points for opening and closing with words from Naomi Oreskes. Folks interested in the idea that big oil deflects the harm imposed by their products onto consumers, while actively lobbying our government / military for the status quo, should read her work.

Here is one example.

https://www.cell.com/one-earth/pdf/S2590-3322(21)00233-5.pdf

and an overview of her thinking / work

https://www.scientificamerican.com/author/naomi-oreskes/

 

[Salmo_g]

Man, this thread delivers! There's enough intellectual horsepower on this forum to solve most anything. Except global warming. All kidding aside, this is an incredible community!

 

[Tallguy]

Came late to this thread, but many of the things talked about here lack data and context.. for the best description of all the systemic and non-systemic actions and solutions needed to keep us at 1.5-2.0 C increase, Project Drawdown has the goods and technical and economic data for you, ranked and assessed individually. For example, see the table of solutions here:

Table of Solutions

drawdown.org

Lots of great videos and high production value descriptions too.. check out their roadmap videos. Time well spent.

Drawdown Roadmap

drawdown.org

Some of the usual electric vehicles and windmills and solar are there, but tons of info about super effective solutions like alternative refrigerants and food waste and land use and methane leaks that you never think of and are massively effective and cost effective and you would never even notice. Just need to decide to do them in many cases. The path to systemic change is well mapped and understood Salmo..

 

[Tallguy]

And one more comment: there is no one single action that is a silver bullet. Keeping us at 1.5-2C will take doing 10-30 things together that are all smallish each, but add up to make enough of a difference to hold the line.. that's actually a good thing, many paths and ways to get to an endpoint means we can pick and choose and accept the tradeoffs.

I super look forward to the day we are all roping tuna on fly rods in the midst of an offshore wind farm. Just like the Gulf Oil platforms that are fish magnets and where every fishing boat drives straight to, I can't imagine how more offshore structure doesn't create little islands of habitat and algae and bait fish and predator fish that are good fishing.. I think fishermen should be psyched about new offshore and inshore habitat. Holding waters on the salmon and tuna highways.

 

[Rob Allen]

It's funny, you seem to confuse the "will of the people" with the will of Rob. Renewable energy is well supported by the general public in the PNW and it shows in their voting. Your opinions are on the fringe of society. If the government made decisions that aligned with your opinions it would be opposed to the will of the people.

The will of the people of Seattle is to put ugly windmills out of their sight. I am all for renewable energy. Renew the energy the universe creates in Seattle..

Also, I do not believe that the will of the people is represented by those who are elected. Even those who voted for them.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

In grad school I ended one of my marine ecology presentations with an argument that, in order for any real change to happen, we needed an “environmental dictator” to force the changes because many in our capitalist society would never sign on willingly. I made a graphic for “Green” Stalin.

The response was pretty much what I expected. Kind of like this thread.

To be fair green Stalin is real. No, he's not in the room with me now but he is real. It's just he's many people.

To willingly get people to green up you need to provide better alternatives. I'm not talking about green washing the same old stuff or marketing green without actually doing much different. I'm talking about developing technologies that do better and have them actually be just as user friendly as the old tech. Force will only garner opposition and disdain.

For instance, every time someone in that video reminds me they are a professional athlete, "living the dream" and feels guilty, I want to turn off my solar panels, fire up the diesel generator, and burn a pile of dirt bike tires. The holy roller style of green stuff telling me to repent is disgusting to me if I'm being honest. And I'm not knocking you or the video participants as they are just a symptom and pawns of what I'm speaking about. Genuine care is making genuine choices and developing alternatives quietly without the evangelical ranting and Catholic style guilt. We all have an impact. We can all alter that impact.

 

[Hoofer]

I agree with Rob: more renewables (and more sacrifices) in the city, please. Also: I’m gonna hate a carbon tax as much as anyone I know. But I’m also starting to really hate the impacts of ‘free’ carbon.

 

[Zak]

I'm talking about developing technologies that do better and have them actually be just as user friendly as the old tech.

I agree with this, but I think there is a chicken and the egg issue to deal with in our capitalistic society. What the incentive to take risks and develop this technology? In my view, the incentive is government mandates. Require that certain standards be met, and then let the market figure out how to meet them. The market participant who figures out how to do it better, cheaper, in a more user friendly way will get rich, others will be left behind. For example, the govt sets fuel efficiency standards for cars, then carmakers compete to build the most attractive (cost-wise and otherwise) car that meets those standards.

Carbon cap and trade is sort of similar: cap the total amount of carbon emissions in an industrial sector, then let the market participants come up solutions. The player that can figure out how make concrete with fewer carbon emissions then makes more money, either because they don't need to buy carbon credits for their process or because they can sell carbon credits that they now have because of their innovative lower carbon emission technology. But without that govt incentive, concrete manufactures lack an incentive to lower their carbon emissions.

 

[wmelton]

The will of the people of Seattle is to put ugly windmills out of their sight. I am all for renewable energy. Renew the energy the universe creates in Seattle..

Also, I do not believe that the will of the people is represented by those who are elected. Even those who voted for them.

The windmills go where there is wind. There are a lot uglier things in Seattle than windmills. Denver has windmills in more visible areas because there is a lot of wind there. Putting them in Seattle makes zero sense. "I don't want to look at it" is a weak argument and I am glad it is losing. I don't like looking at oil refineries yet I have to regularly.

 

[Flymph]

Hydrocarbon fuels are a renewable resource and much less polluting then extracting the rare earth's in scale needed for batteries and solar. Wind energy doesn't pencil out, the windmills fail and age out before they pay for themselves, kill birds of prey, and whales in the ocean. Then they go to graveyards in the desert, unable to be recycled.

"and whales in the ocean" - not quite, they cause the whales to beach themselves like never seen before, like never seen before! The rest of your statements are baseless but this one comes from the fact maker, himself.

 

[Flymph]

No more windmills is rural areas for urban power generation is a systematic change I'd like to see.. windmills are ugly and destructive.

Yes, and far more so than mountain top removal, slash piles that wash out, and I could go on on!

 

[Stonedfish]

I've lived in Seattle for 46 years, but I don't ever recall voting on any ballot measure that had to do with where windmills would be built.
SF

 

[Flymph]

Never happened? Seriously? So breathable air and drinkable water exists abundantly everywhere on the planet? No, I don't think so. Actually, you and I both know so. I guess one could say that it is not over population per se that degrades vital resources so much as inadequate mitigation measures. Nonetheless, last time I checked, nearly every vital resource necessary to human sustenance is in finite supply. Yeah, well, how about human ingenuity and our ability to create a way out of this mess? Last time I checked, our supply of that was decreasing faster than our need for it was increasing. But chasing that sub-topic might get me in political mischief here.

Spoken like a true believer of "The Barefoot Economist" - great read!

 

[Dustin Chromers]

I agree with this, but I think there is a chicken and the egg issue to deal with in our capitalistic society. What the incentive to take risks and develop this technology? In my view, the incentive is government mandates. Require that certain standards be met, and then let the market figure out how to meet them. The market participant who figures out how to do it better, cheaper, in a more user friendly way will get rich, others will be left behind. For example, the govt sets fuel efficiency standards for cars, then carmakers compete to build the most attractive (cost-wise and otherwise) car that meets those standards.

Carbon cap and trade is sort of similar: cap the total amount of carbon emissions in an industrial sector, then let the market participants come up solutions. The player that can figure out how make concrete with fewer carbon emissions then makes more money, either because they don't need to buy carbon credits for their process or because they can sell carbon credits that they now have because of their innovative lower carbon emission technology. But without that govt incentive, concrete manufactures lack an incentive to lower their carbon emissions.

The big incentive is always money. Plenty of people will buy electric cars provided they fit their needs. A mandate just gets me burning tires and diesel dorks rolling coal cause it's defiant. This entire country is built on a culture of defiance.

That's not a bad thing. In fact understanding it can lead to harnessing it. Authority should be questioned. Norms should be challenged. And technologies counter the status quo should be explored not because it's easy but because it's cool and you might make a bunch of money. I have great faith that free thinkers will no matter what keep driving forward solving the problems of today with tomorrow ideas. There's a reason why defiant counter culture characters enjoy such reverence in this country. The outlaw thinkers and doers never do anything for a mandate. If you want stagnation then mandate away. If you want breakthrough stuff leave the field open.

 

[jact55]

My 2 cents. Just shooting straight. Not trying to be mean, but it's how I see it.

- hard to get on board with much of anything. Frankly anyone who is pushing something seems to come across as a biased liar. The world is burning. The world isn't burning. Everyone has interests to protect. Especially the government, businesses and half the non profits. They're all full of shit.

- fuck any tax to go towards anything. Give them more money to squander on dumb ass ideas? Please. 50% of my money to taxes is enough.

- haven't seen a reasonable long term answer or plan for electric vehicles being a solution. Sorry. I'm happy to explain.

- nobody wants to admit it, but honestly while money is involved and more so our (including mine) voracious appetite for consumerism is in play. Ain't shit changing. So unless we live a simpler life, not demanding new shit every day, supply will meet demand, no matter what (see drugs).

- banning bags/straws, ect is the dumbest thing i have seen. Like taking out a million dollar loan at 15% interest, then patting yourself on the back when you make a 10 cent payment. But if it's makes you feel good I guess....

We can all do super good here in the USA. Stop buying from Amazon. Grow our own gardens. Drive electric cars on the backs of poor countries being exploited. Live that good green life. But I promise you countries like China, Indonesia, India, Nigeria, ect will eventually and quickly fill the void. How do we offset that? They want and frankly deserve the same standard of living...do we say fuck you? Good luck here.

So basically see you in hell....or not....depending on who's telling the truth. That's what it all comes down to- the truth. If we could have honest conversations, I'd be less cynical. But politician, corporations, and anyone else looking to cash in on this green movement are the driving force to this. Not the general public. Sorry. We can all talk, but I ain't closing my standard of living while the ultra rich who's carbon footprint is 100s the time of mine fly on their private jets to talk about this sort of stuff.

Love you. Prove me wrong, please. Hope I am

 

[DimeBrite]

Why not place a ban or tight limits on non-essential activities that produce carbon dioxide, emit methane, or require destructive strip mining for minerals?

Skiing
Fishing
Hiking
Hunting
Backpacking
Bird watching
Etc

 

[Hoofer]

Previously mentioned wind farm = 1000 megawatts = average Snake River Dam = ~150,000 houses worth of pv panels.

The wind program seems like a good approach to me. More coal does not.

 

[adamcu280]

To be fair green Stalin is real. No, he's not in the room with me now but he is real. It's just he's many people.

To willingly get people to green up you need to provide better alternatives. I'm not talking about green washing the same old stuff or marketing green without actually doing much different. I'm talking about developing technologies that do better and have them actually be just as user friendly as the old tech. Force will only garner opposition and disdain.

For instance, every time someone in that video reminds me they are a professional athlete, "living the dream" and feels guilty, I want to turn off my solar panels, fire up the diesel generator, and burn a pile of dirt bike tires. The holy roller style of green stuff telling me to repent is disgusting to me if I'm being honest. And I'm not knocking you or the video participants as they are just a symptom and pawns of what I'm speaking about. Genuine care is making genuine choices and developing alternatives quietly without the evangelical ranting and Catholic style guilt. We all have an impact. We can all alter that impact.

If Green Stalin is real, there’s an equal or greater force working against him.

And what Zak said re. chicken and egg. Better alternatives don’t just show up out of nowhere. They need time and money to be developed, and this is where the forces working against Green Stalin make progress difficult or impossible.

 

[Rob Allen]

My 2 cents. Just shooting straight. Not trying to be mean, but it's how I see it.

- hard to get on board with much of anything. Frankly anyone who is pushing something seems to come across as a biased liar. The world is burning. The world isn't burning. Everyone has interests to protect. Especially the government, businesses and half the non profits. They're all full of shit.

- fuck any tax to go towards anything. Give them more money to squander on dumb ass ideas? Please. 50% of my money to taxes is enough.

- haven't seen a reasonable long term answer or plan for electric vehicles being a solution. Sorry. I'm happy to explain.

- nobody wants to admit it, but honestly while money is involved and more so our (including mine) voracious appetite for consumerism is in play. Ain't shit changing. So unless we live a simpler life, not demanding new shit every day, supply will meet demand, no matter what (see drugs).

- banning bags/straws, ect is the dumbest thing i have seen. Like taking out a million dollar loan at 15% interest, then patting yourself on the back when you make a 10 cent payment. But if it's makes you feel good I guess....

We can all do super good here in the USA. Stop buying from Amazon. Grow our own gardens. Drive electric cars on the backs of poor countries being exploited. Live that good green life. But I promise you countries like China, Indonesia, India, Nigeria, ect will eventually and quickly fill the void. How do we offset that? They want and frankly deserve the same standard of living...do we say fuck you? Good luck here.

So basically see you in hell....or not....depending on who's telling the truth. That's what it all comes down to- the truth. If we could have honest conversations, I'd be less cynical. But politician, corporations, and anyone else looking to cash in on this green movement are the driving force to this. Not the general public. Sorry. We can all talk, but I ain't closing my standard of living while the ultra rich who's carbon footprint is 100s the time of mine fly on their private jets to talk about this sort of stuff.

Love you. Prove me wrong, please. Hope I am

I just read dereliction of duty... there is no reason to believe any government actions are being taken for altruistic reasons. If your not skeptical and cynical you're being never. It's that simple.