Parachute Hackle Discussion

[James St. Clair]

Just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts on parachute hackle re: concave side up, or concave side down when wrapping on a parachute post.

When we buy hackle we are only really looking at one side of the feather. The underside of the feather that we don't see can be a very different color, or lack the intensity of the pattern (grizzly/barred, badger, speckled, etc.) That we see on the front side of the feather. Some colors/patterns are less pronounced on the underside of the feather than others, but in general, they are significantly different.

Here is an example I spun up today for reference. Color on this one isn't crazy different, but the pattern is pretty much non-existent on the underside of the feather. The color is grizzly dyed sunburst:


Concave up (fish sees front side of feather):



Concave down (fish sees underside of feather):



From a fishing standpoint, what do we want the fish to see? If it's the front side of the feather, does the concave side facing up affect the fishability of the fly?

In my eyes, the concave facing up puts the hackle further away from the waters surface, and thus likely makes the body ride lower, or possibly below the surface of the water. But, the fish sees the color/pattern of the hackle that we likely purchased because of that. As you can see above, the hackle the fish is seeing is slightly more golden, and the grizzly barring is visible. But will the body being subsurface absorb more water and cause the fly to sink faster?

The concave side facing down puts the hackle closer to the waters surface, which likely keeps the body riding in the surface film, or possibly even on top of the surface. But, the fish sees the underside of the feather, which you can see above lacks the grizzly barring, and is more of just a plain yellow hackle. If your trying to imitate some mottling, then obviously concave down isn't working. Does that matter that much to the fish? Does it outweigh having the body ride lower in the water?

I've been tying concave down forever, and don't seem to have a problem catching fish. I know this is probably one of those "who cares?" Or "if it ain't broke why fix it?" questions, but I really am interested in what other people's thoughts are on this!

 

[Zak]

Just wanted to hear everyone's thoughts on parachute hackle re: concave side up, or concave side down when wrapping on a parachute post.

When we buy hackle we are only really looking at one side of the feather. The underside of the feather that we don't see can be a very different color, or lack the intensity of the pattern (grizzly/barred, badger, speckled, etc.) That we see on the front side of the feather. Some colors/patterns are less pronounced on the underside of the feather than others, but in general, they are significantly different.

Here is an example I spun up today for reference. Color on this one isn't crazy different, but the pattern is pretty much non-existent on the underside of the feather. The color is grizzly dyed sunburst:
View attachment 52133

Concave up (fish sees front side of feather):
View attachment 52129
View attachment 52130

Concave down (fish sees underside of feather):
View attachment 52131
View attachment 52132

From a fishing standpoint, what do we want the fish to see? If it's the front side of the feather, does the concave side facing up affect the fishability of the fly?

In my eyes, the concave facing up puts the hackle further away from the waters surface, and thus likely makes the body ride lower, or possibly below the surface of the water. But, the fish sees the color/pattern of the hackle that we likely purchased because of that. As you can see above, the hackle the fish is seeing is slightly more golden, and the grizzly barring is visible. But will the body being subsurface absorb more water and cause the fly to sink faster?

The concave side facing down puts the hackle closer to the waters surface, which likely keeps the body riding in the surface film, or possibly even on top of the surface. But, the fish sees the underside of the feather, which you can see above lacks the grizzly barring, and is more of just a plain yellow hackle. If your trying to imitate some mottling, then obviously concave down isn't working. Does that matter that much to the fish? Does it outweigh having the body ride lower in the water?

I've been tying concave down forever, and don't seem to have a problem catching fish. I know this is probably one of those "who cares?" Or "if it ain't broke why fix it?" questions, but I really am interested in what other people's thoughts are on this!

I think, perhaps without good reason, that concave side down makes a bunch of little dimples on the surface tension where each fiber tip touches down, and those tiny dimples are attractors.

 

[Scottp]

James,

After reading Production Fly Tying I started tying my parachutes like A.K. Best, concave side up. His logic was that, stating at the top of the post, each succeeding turn could be wrapped tighter against the previous one without interference from the the tips of the previous wraps and you could get more wraps on the post. It would also be more aerodynamic with the general curvature of the hackle facing up, allowing the fly to drop in the proper orientation gently to the water. Whether all of this is true or not, he ties a mean fly and knows a whole lot more about it that I do, and they seemed to work okay, so I’ve stuck with it.
I can see your reasoning and, as always, you tie a beautiful fly, as well. Like you said, if it ain’t broke why fix it?

Regards,
Scott

 

[rattlesnake]

Interesting question. I’ve always done concave down. Since I’ve started tying off on the post more often lately, I can really see the benefits of concave up. But with this question I’ll be sure to try the other way just because.

Surprised that the mottling isn’t as noticeable concave down. Something to think about for sure.

Not to hijack but I’ve also seen many right handers say to wrap the hackle clockwise around the post…. But I’ve always done ccw when tying off to the hook since the thread wrap is essentially tightening/in same direction as the hackle wrap. Then when tying off on post I wrap the hackle cw for similar reasons.

I’ve read AKs book twice (albeit a bunch of years back) and totally missed that point @Scottp but makes sense.

 

[James St. Clair]

I think, perhaps without good reason, that concave side down makes a bunch of little dimples on the surface tension where each fiber tip touches down, and those tiny dimples are attractors.

I meant to mention that as a benefit for concave side down, that the tips of some of the hackle fibers create dimples on the water, creating something similar to that of the legs would of a mayfly. I don't see this happening with concave up.

 

[mcswny]

James, I tie my hackles concave side up for the same reason you state--it's what I paid for/it's prettier. I haven't necessarily had any issues with flies not floating and on top of that, I've kind of always treated/heard that parachutes were kind of like emergers anyways since they sit so flush.

On a side note, how do you like the Yard Bird Hackle? How does it compare to say, a White Bronze cape?

Also, keep in mind, I'm an average tier at best.

 

[Scottp]

I meant to mention that as a benefit for concave side down, that the tips of some of the hackle fibers create dimples on the water, creating something similar to that of the legs would of a mayfly. I don't see this happening with concave up.

James,

I may have to try tying concave down, starting at the base of the post, wrapping the hackle up and tying the hackle off at the top. Love that hackle color, by the way.

Regards,
Scott

 

[James St. Clair]

On a side note, how do you like the Yard Bird Hackle? How does it compare to say, a White Bronze cape?

Fly Fish Food's Flash Hackle thing is pretty sweet. I buy most of my hackle from them and have not been dissapointed. Regarding the Yard Bird Hackle, I think it has a pretty good value to quality ratio. I would say, however, that the grade comparison is variable (which is why I like that they take pictures of the actual cape/saddle you are purchasing).

What I mean by this is the cape that I posted above is more like a Pro grade from Whiting. 1 feather makes 1 fly. The feathers are a little short, but the quality is there. And yes, it was an impulse buy based on the badass color, haha! I feel like I knew what I was getting into with this one based on the picture (i.e. shorter feathers).

I also purchased this silver badger (although it's more in-between a gold and silver color) for the same exact price a few months ago. I would grade this one a silver, maybe even a gold. The feathers are super long, and the barbules are dense. I get 3 flies per feather from this cape.

***edited to add that single feather I pulled out a little on the right, that is on the white background is a sz. 16...long feather from a cape for that size!

I have purchased a few Yard Bird saddles as well, and found similar results. Some are Pro Grade, some are gold, and agin, I felt like I could tell from the pictures. I do like that they offer some colors that Whiting doesn't, and that they usually have quite a few to choose from when they get a shipment in.

 

[mcswny]

Fly Fish Food's Flash Hackle thing is pretty sweet. I buy most of my hackle from them and have not been dissapointed. Regarding the Yard Bird Hackle, I think it has a pretty good value to quality ratio. I would say, however, that the grade comparison is variable (which is why I like that they take pictures of the actual cape/saddle you are purchasing).

What I mean by this is the cape that I posted above is more like a Pro grade from Whiting. 1 feather makes 1 fly. The feathers are a little short, but the quality is there. And yes, it was an impulse buy based on the badass color, haha! I feel like I knew what I was getting into with this one based on the picture (i.e. shorter feathers).

I also purchased this silver badger (although it's more in-between a gold and silver color) for the same exact price a few months ago. I would grade this one a silver, maybe even a gold. The feathers are super long, and the barbules are dense. I get 3 flies per feather from this cape.
View attachment 52181View attachment 52182
***edited to add that single feather I pulled out a little on the right, that is on the white background is a sz. 16...long feather from a cape for that size!

I have purchased a few Yard Bird saddles as well, and found similar results. Some are Pro Grade, some are gold, and agin, I felt like I could tell from the pictures. I do like that they offer some colors that Whiting doesn't, and that they usually have quite a few to choose from when they get a shipment in.

Awesome, thanks James!

 

[RCF]

I have always tied concave up. As a believer of getting the fly onto/into the surface rather than partially riding above it, I feel concave up works best. Does it work better than concave down? Dunno but I do catch fish with concave up.

 

[krusty]

Concave side up in the northern hemisphere, and down in the southern.

 

[kmudgn]

I know I am not the best, or maybe even anything beyond just a competent tier as I tie for the fish, not the shadow box. That being said, I have never, ever thought about post hackle being concave, or convex. The fish don't seem to care

 

[RCF]

I know I am not the best, or maybe even anything beyond just a competent tier as I tie for the fish, not the shadow box. That being said, I have never, ever thought about post hackle being concave, or convex. The fish don't seem to care

I bet you are correct. But having confidence in your fly more than makes up any perceived differences...

 

[James St. Clair]

I bet you are correct. But having confidence in your fly more than makes up any perceived differences...

This, for sure!

 

[krusty]

I'm pretty sure my flyfishing/flytying deficiencies far outweigh any concavity/convexity considerations. I'm just happy when I don't lose control of the damn thing when wrapping the post.

 

[Mossback]

Concave side up in the northern hemisphere, and down in the southern.

I think that's wind the hackle counterclockwise in the North, clockwise in the South.
You know, like a toilet flush.


Shiny side down...

 

[tkww]

I've always tied down because that seemed closer to what real legs actually do. That said, not sure there's enough curve to make enough of a difference?

Scott mentioned A.K.: I think in one of his books he makes a comment along the lines of BWO leg color and the common use of darker dun shades for hackle, but the legs actually being more creamy. And when we look at mayflies, how often are we turning them over? A lot of pale undersides but we tie the body out of the top-side color. We still catch tons of fish on them. (And in a severely back-lit situation, how much color/shade/tone can fish even differentiate?) Anyway, fun to think about.

Here's a BWO. Not saying they're all like this--there are so many species in this group--but I'll admit to never having tied one with a light gray abdomen, brown thorax, and cream-tan-ginger legs.

 

[mcswny]

but I'll admit to never having tied one with a light gray abdomen, brown thorax, and cream-tan-ginger legs.

I guess that's why Adam's work so well?

 

[RCF]

What do people like to use as the parachute? Calf tail, poly yarn or?

 

[mcswny]

What do people like to use as the parachute? Calf tail, poly yarn or?

Congo Hair