Chris Bellows
Steelhead
I agree especially if you continue to allow bait and two hook rigs.
NOF 2022
- Thread starter Stonedfish
- Start date
I'd say it's less the bait/two hook thing, and more the handling that's the issue. The bait doesn't get eaten any deeper/worse than artificials. But when you get a coho in the net, it thrashes, loses most its scales, and tires/beats itself up completely until it can't anymore. Then factor in Bubba hauling it up on the deck, letting it beat itself up there, then tossing it overboard. I've seen multiple situations off the Columbia River mouth where I saw a few floaters from that type of treatment.
Chris Bellows
Steelhead
My experience is that two hook rigs thrash coho compared to single hook rigs but that my N of 1. Haven’t read the regs in years and it’s hard to believe netting and sorting on deck is legal especially considering the River rules for steelhead, which are far hardier.
Legality doesn't matter for many. They're gonna do it. I see it every time I'm out there.
I was told that most of the big boats stopped netting them altogether. It was just too fast and furious so they just fished heavy leaders and pulled them up by hand. De-hooker tool in hand as they brought it up, if it had a fin just released right over the rail. No fin, flip it on board.
Kinda have mixed feelings about that. IMO coho don't do well in nets under the best circumstances. A long handled net on a high deck in a crazy bite is fairly slow and probably tough on the fish even for the best deckhands. But then I wonder if pulling them up that high just via the hook/leader is any better for them. In some ways those big boats are kinda screwed either way when it comes to releasing nates when the bite is that fast. Some of those charters care more about fish handling than others, but the bulk of them and their crews actually care a lot and I know they're kinda in a tough spot.
I loved my time decking on six packs, but to hell with decking with 20 customers lol
I tend to agree with Chris regarding two hooks. It's not an issue of them taking bait deep, but more the damage done by a second hook as a coho is thrashing around near or the boat or in the net. That loose hook finds eyeballs and gills way more than I'd prefer.
The times that we are Salmon fishing generally we are targeting mostly chinook with coho kind of secondary bonus. If I got the chance to fish in that kind of crazy coho action I think I'd bail on the second hook. Probably wouldn't run bait at all, as it's definitely not needed. Probably just run a hoochie commercial style with a single J hook.
Any coho that comes to my boat stays in the water until identified if it has a fin or not. If not, into the boat and bonk. If yes, released as quickly as possible. I hate netting them at all, but it can be damned difficult to spot a fin on a thrashing coho near the boat, and in many cases ends up with the fish being played longer than necessary, or causing itself damage while thrashing around while we try to identify.
From a charter perspective I have a love/hate relationship with coho. Love it cause it's super easy and a lot of action and fun, but hate it because I feel no matter what we do we end up hurting more high finners than I would like.
The times that we are Salmon fishing generally we are targeting mostly chinook with coho kind of secondary bonus. If I got the chance to fish in that kind of crazy coho action I think I'd bail on the second hook. Probably wouldn't run bait at all, as it's definitely not needed. Probably just run a hoochie commercial style with a single J hook.
Any coho that comes to my boat stays in the water until identified if it has a fin or not. If not, into the boat and bonk. If yes, released as quickly as possible. I hate netting them at all, but it can be damned difficult to spot a fin on a thrashing coho near the boat, and in many cases ends up with the fish being played longer than necessary, or causing itself damage while thrashing around while we try to identify.
From a charter perspective I have a love/hate relationship with coho. Love it cause it's super easy and a lot of action and fun, but hate it because I feel no matter what we do we end up hurting more high finners than I would like.
Saltwater coho seem to lose scales if you just look at them.
SF
SF
Someone needs to ask the number folks during NOF meetings what the benefits (season length and hatchery fish harvested) are from fishing coho selective over non-selective.
That trade off basically come downs to the interplay between the release mortality and the ratio between clipped and unclipped fish. For a quick and dirty look let's assume the release mortality for those coho is the same for ocean Chinook; that is 19% (14% release mortality and 5% for drop off). Further let's assume that to catch 40 hatchery fish the fleet is having to catch 200 coho (160 unclipped and 40 clipped). In this example in releasing those 160 unclipped fish 30.4 (160 times 0,19) would be expected to die. If the fishery was non-selective and the same party kept the first 40 fish caught 32 unclipped fish would die (40 times 0.8).
Generally speaking anytime the portion of the clipped fish in the fished population is greater than the release mortality and fishing selectively allows for longer seasons and larger harvest of the clipped fish. In a situation like last year when the ocean coho fishery was seriously constrained by an individual wild stock (Queets) potentially there would be even greater benefits to fishing selective.
Ultimately I suppose in most cases it comes to the users choice; is having simple and easy to understand fishing regulations worth the trade off of shorter seasons are reduced harvest.
To be clear I do not know the situation with the coastal coho fishery and was speaking above in broad terms.
Nick would the charter fleet prefer shorter coho seasons? More time for tuna?
That trade off basically come downs to the interplay between the release mortality and the ratio between clipped and unclipped fish. For a quick and dirty look let's assume the release mortality for those coho is the same for ocean Chinook; that is 19% (14% release mortality and 5% for drop off). Further let's assume that to catch 40 hatchery fish the fleet is having to catch 200 coho (160 unclipped and 40 clipped). In this example in releasing those 160 unclipped fish 30.4 (160 times 0,19) would be expected to die. If the fishery was non-selective and the same party kept the first 40 fish caught 32 unclipped fish would die (40 times 0.8).
Generally speaking anytime the portion of the clipped fish in the fished population is greater than the release mortality and fishing selectively allows for longer seasons and larger harvest of the clipped fish. In a situation like last year when the ocean coho fishery was seriously constrained by an individual wild stock (Queets) potentially there would be even greater benefits to fishing selective.
Ultimately I suppose in most cases it comes to the users choice; is having simple and easy to understand fishing regulations worth the trade off of shorter seasons are reduced harvest.
To be clear I do not know the situation with the coastal coho fishery and was speaking above in broad terms.
Nick would the charter fleet prefer shorter coho seasons? More time for tuna?
I don't know the exact numbers, and I am certain Nick and others who do the ocean coho fishery would agree, but the coho c&r mortality rate is much, much higher than chinook.
Evan -
I suspect that you/they are correct that the coho mortality is higher than the values I used; I just grab the easily available info I could find.
As always I consistently advocate for the use of the best information available to model those kinds of impacts. The best information is the foundation to the best management which ultimately in the long term the best for the fish though in the short term that approach may not be the best for the fishers.
Curt
I suspect that you/they are correct that the coho mortality is higher than the values I used; I just grab the easily available info I could find.
As always I consistently advocate for the use of the best information available to model those kinds of impacts. The best information is the foundation to the best management which ultimately in the long term the best for the fish though in the short term that approach may not be the best for the fishers.
Curt
SeaRunner
Steelhead
For those interested in numbers, did anyone notice the changes in historical run size for PS chinook between NOF 2021 and NOF 2022?
The PS chinook wild run size 10 year average prior to ESA listing increased by 75% (36,637 to 64,236), and recent 10 year average increased by 43% (27,908 to 40,001).
Those are not insignificant changes. According to WDFW these changes are due to recent run reconstructions. This raises a whole host of questions in my mind. Ultimately I wonder what (if any) impact this will have on the exploitation rates and model runs used by WDFW in developing seasons.
Any guesses?
The PS chinook wild run size 10 year average prior to ESA listing increased by 75% (36,637 to 64,236), and recent 10 year average increased by 43% (27,908 to 40,001).
Those are not insignificant changes. According to WDFW these changes are due to recent run reconstructions. This raises a whole host of questions in my mind. Ultimately I wonder what (if any) impact this will have on the exploitation rates and model runs used by WDFW in developing seasons.
Any guesses?
Chris Bellows
Steelhead
Hopefully you're fishing for chinook as downriggers seem like such a waste of time for coho. I still remember a day out at Swiftsure in the early 2000's when we couldn't keep the coho off our cast flies and all I could hear was cursing from a buddy's boat who was trying to get through the silvers to get to the kings underneath. He was holding the lure as he lowered the rigger balls and quickly release both to get down quick enough. The cursing was because there was no way to catch anything but silvers. Amazing how gear and what you're targeting can so drastically change one's experience on the water (I've been on the other side cursing at the mackerel trying to get to the silvers).
Chris Bellows
Steelhead
As for the wild release, as someone who dealt with really short seasons prior to selective coho fisheries I can only say be careful what you wish for. As bad as it appears, imagine the salmon seasons going the way of the coastal halibut seasons.
Yeah if we're salmon fishing we're almost always targeting chinook first and foremost. Typically when coho fishing is at its peak we are tuna fishing. There is usually coho around while we are salmon fishing, but most people who pay for a charter want to catch chinook. Our trips are sold as a "salmon" trip and I have full freedom to decide to target one or the other but with a few exceptions I don't feel right just going out and catching an easy boat limit of coho if I feel I can catch chinook. There have been times when chinook fishing is slow so I do focus on the coho but not too often. If I was going out when coho fishing was hot and actually targeting them there's no way I'd leave the dock with the riggers onboard. Downriggers for coho is such a pain in the ass.
When there are good numbers of both we'll fish downriggers for chinook and once we get the customers limit, (it's two salmon, one can be a chinook out of Westport), I'll typically throw out some divers/flat lines for coho and keep fishing a rigger just to find a crew chinook or two which is an upgrade possibility for customers.
If I got to fish coho last year at the peak I'd have tried all kinds of goofy shit just for fun. Then again the experience level of our average crew on salmon trips is not often high, so keeping things simple is often a better route.
FYI regarding meeting tonight and Wednesday for Puget Sound.
Looks like they are proposing knocking MA 9 back to a August 1st opener for both chinook and coho.
SF
Looks like they are proposing knocking MA 9 back to a August 1st opener for both chinook and coho.
SF
I think this topic comes up nearly every year, and I probably forget all the great past answers (poor salmo, our patient explainer), but remind me again why coho and chinook seasons work in lockstep, at least for the opening dates and most retention criteria? Or why aren't more fishing type restrictions used to lengthen seasons? I never quite understand why a broader portfolio of fishing restrictions isn't used to lengthen seasons, versus having a very very short anything goes salmon season. I think one year september was shore fishing only, it is an existing precedent.
of course its self serving, I love to fish for salmon from the beach with a single barbless hook fly, and am perfectly comfortable releasing fish... but I wish we could all advocate for, when necessary, options for longer salmon seasons:
1) splitting coho and chinook season dates.. the end of the year is typically split when chinook closes, but why not the beginning? Is this mostly because fishing methods are considered too similar for both?
2) Why not a longer season of shore fishing only? Why not MA 9 July 1 from shore, Aug 1 from a boat? This essentially constrains fishing to near surface salmon, and should have pretty limited impacts on constraining stocks of chinook in general (I think?).
3) Can we ever realistically argue for October coho in MA 9? Get that into a "NR" category? Worrisomely, this seems to be trending to a July concern as well... what exactyl do we need to do to gain a longer season in the face of ever tightening restrictions? Is there a set of acceptable restrictions that can lengthen a season, without impairing overall recovery goals.
I just so struggle to understand why we alwasy devolve toward a short and crazy, super intensive, anything goes, Bristol bay sockeye season (or northern herring seasons) type models for fisheries management, versus promoting fishing types and experiences which are simply less effective, or have options for very careful handling methods (barbless, don't remove from water) that promote reduced mortality in non-target species.
The season is collapsing to about 4 good tidal cycles (each takes about 2 weeks), of which, really only 2 or so truly intersect with optimal run timing.. Sucks!
of course its self serving, I love to fish for salmon from the beach with a single barbless hook fly, and am perfectly comfortable releasing fish... but I wish we could all advocate for, when necessary, options for longer salmon seasons:
1) splitting coho and chinook season dates.. the end of the year is typically split when chinook closes, but why not the beginning? Is this mostly because fishing methods are considered too similar for both?
2) Why not a longer season of shore fishing only? Why not MA 9 July 1 from shore, Aug 1 from a boat? This essentially constrains fishing to near surface salmon, and should have pretty limited impacts on constraining stocks of chinook in general (I think?).
3) Can we ever realistically argue for October coho in MA 9? Get that into a "NR" category? Worrisomely, this seems to be trending to a July concern as well... what exactyl do we need to do to gain a longer season in the face of ever tightening restrictions? Is there a set of acceptable restrictions that can lengthen a season, without impairing overall recovery goals.
I just so struggle to understand why we alwasy devolve toward a short and crazy, super intensive, anything goes, Bristol bay sockeye season (or northern herring seasons) type models for fisheries management, versus promoting fishing types and experiences which are simply less effective, or have options for very careful handling methods (barbless, don't remove from water) that promote reduced mortality in non-target species.
The season is collapsing to about 4 good tidal cycles (each takes about 2 weeks), of which, really only 2 or so truly intersect with optimal run timing.. Sucks!
If that's true that would really be disappointing. I remember when MA 9 was open about half the year for something to fish for. They took October coho (which was personally my favorite fishery in WA) away fairly recently, and the seasons keep getting shorter and shorter. It's inevitable that we probably won't have that area to fish in much longer sadly.
Chris Bellows
Steelhead
The loudest voices in the room are anglers fishing out of boats. No surprise that seasons are crafted around those who show up. If you could get a hundred plus shore anglers (who agree on what you want) to show up to every meeting you might be able to craft something along the lines of what you mentioned, but even then it would probably take multiple years and you'd be hard pressed to keep a hundred plus people going year after year to boring meetings often a long drive from home.
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