Help!! I'm hinge- ing

[wanderingrichard]

So, on this trip to work on our Penna. property, I brought along an 8 ft 6 in 5 wt with a WF floater for line.
I'm using a commercial one part tapered trout leader and 2 ft of 5lb tippet.

This is not an expensive set up. It's budget, but I can make it work.

But, my casting is killing me. Specifically, when I try to lay out the cast, I'm getting a massive hinge effect at the leader / tippet junction and my offerings are just plopping into the water. So, I'm getting a bit frustrated.

Any suggestions to cure this ?

 

[fatbillybob]

All the above is good info.
What I have noticed is that even experienced casters have the tendence to want to throw the cast when laying out the fly.
What do I mean by throwing the last cast.
Do ya remember how to cast a spin rod or bait casting rod? That is throwing the lure or bait.
Well that is what I have seen many fly casters do on the finial cast.
That puts your line ahead of your leader or pile up the leader.
What I try to do when I want to lay a dry fly lightly on the water.
I stop my fly in mid air just like I was going to faults cast and let it settle to the water.
It sure would be easier to show ya than explain in the screen.

I'm with you. All great posts but....My 1st thought was not a new leader formula but casting technique with the OP's set-up. There are many variables. Top in my mind are casting stroke, weight of fly, length of leader. A simple change in any can be success. A same sized custom leader vs. a store bought same sized tapered leader isn't going to be a big enough physical difference in my mind to alter a failed cast as described. Length of leader is going to have a bigger role in turnover at a particular casting plane.

 

[wanderingrichard]

I've used SA, Orvis and Rio but not the FM. Usually I have a foot to 18" between the butt section and ring where I attach the tippett. What's the specific question, interest?

Yeah. Saw a roll of pink/ yellow 7 1/2 lb at the Blue Heron when I was there. I know that Salmo_G once suggested using fluorescent red Amnesia as a sighter. I think this is for the same purpose

 

[wanderingrichard]

I'm with you. All great posts but....My 1st thought was not a new leader formula but casting technique with the OP's set-up. There are many variables. Top in my mind are casting stroke, weight of fly, length of leader. A simple change in any can be success. A same sized custom leader vs. a store bought same sized tapered leader isn't going to be a big enough physical difference in my mind to alter a failed cast as described. Length of leader is going to have a bigger role in turnover at a particular casting plane.

Nope. Leader issues. Wasn't set up right. Followed suggestions and except for a few sloppy casts and the rod being underlined , got back to business.

 

[fatbillybob]

Nope. Leader issues. Wasn't set up right. Followed suggestions and except for a few sloppy casts and the rod being underlined , got back to business.

created leader issue under line of rod. Each line weight is actually grains per 30ft. That moves a certain amount of mass.

 

[MGdriver]

Just buy a different commercial leader, one X size higher than the tippet you plan to tie on.

If you’re going to buy materials and start tying your own, below is what I use. Vary the segment lengths to taste.

- 20lb Chameleon
- 15lb Chameleon
- 12lb Chameleon
- 10lb Ultragreen
- 0x Powerflex
- 2x Powerflex
- Tippet ring
- 3-5x Powerflex

The stiffness of Chameleon allows you to make a light leader that transfers power well. Ultragreen is softer than Chameleon and provides a good transition. Everything below 10lb should be Powerflex or similar; all Maxima lines are weak, relative to diameter, and lot of 3x (0.008in) fly shop nylon will be stronger than 8lb (0.010in) Maxima. Terminating with 2x, at the tippet ring, is important; it allows you to run 3-5x tippet, on the same base leader, as conditions change. For example, I use 3x for hoppers and 5x for BWOs, but all I have to change is the tippet.

Below is a good dry fly leader formula.

- 30in 20lb Chameleon
- 22in 15lb Chameleon
- 16in 12lb Chameleon
- 12in 10lb Ultragreen
- 10in 0x Powerflex
- 10in 2x Powerflex
- Tippet ring
- 3-5ft 3-5x Powerflex

Below is a good indicator nymphing leader formula.

- 12in 20lb Chameleon
- 10in 15lb Chameleon
- 8in 12lb Chameleon
- 6in 10lb Ultragreen
- 4in 0x Powerflex
- 4in 2x Powerflex
- Tippet ring
- 2-4ft 3-5x Powerflex

Thannks

 

[Brute]

I usually buy 7.5’ 3x or 2x tapered leaders and cut back like most here have said…add quality tippet…streamers I buy 4’ tapered 12lb leaders, cut back a foot and add a foot of quality tippet…it’s been working for me…

 

[Robert Engleheart]

I’ve really been happy with furled leaders when fishing dry flies.

 

[Jake Watrous]

I’ve really been happy with furled leaders when fishing dry flies.

Never chatted with anyone who uses those about them. How do you combat/avoid the stuff they pick up and the sinking? I tried them and then went back to tying tapered mono leaders, but I remain open to the concept.

 

[wanderingrichard]

created leader issue under line of rod. Each line weight is actually grains per 30ft. That moves a certain amount of mass.

Could you please restate that in a comprehensible sentence?

 

[fatbillybob]

Could you please restate that in a comprehensible sentence?

Nope. Leader issues. Wasn't set up right. Followed suggestions and except for a few sloppy casts and the rod being underlined , got back to business.

You said you underlined the rod. Suggestions were custom leaders where I replied

I'm with you. All great posts but....My 1st thought was not a new leader formula but casting technique with the OP's set-up. There are many variables. Top in my mind are casting stroke, weight of fly, length of leader. A simple change in any can be success. A same sized custom leader vs. a store bought same sized tapered leader isn't going to be a big enough physical difference in my mind to alter a failed cast as described. Length of leader is going to have a bigger role in turnover at a particular casting plane.

"created leader issue under line of rod. Each line weight is actually grains per 30ft. That moves a certain amount of mass" :

-a rod is rated in "weight". Underlining means you move less payload
-weight of flyline is first 30ft by AFTMA definition
-mass of 1st 30ft of flyline can only move so much payload
-Payload is leader and fly. If leader was 300 ft. you could not cast it.







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[wanderingrichard]

No. The combo has always felt underlined. I was using what came on it when it was purchased. ( big box store special)

I do think it's the wrong line for that rod. It does not load properly for the small stream/ limited casting space areas I was fishing. As in, the weight forward section isn't forward enough for the rod to work in cramped conditions.

I was also using the original leader that was attached when it was assembled for retail. After getting the assistance from the other guys who answered me here, I trimmed away a large section of that leader and used the remainder as the butt section, then assembled a newer leader with 3 step downs down to 5 lb tippet, which is as low as I was willing to go considering the conditions.

While doing this helped, it didn't quite cure all the hinge issues, which occurred within the last few feet of the leader during each cast.
That, I think, is my fault seeing as I am rusty at casting and have always used a very languid semi side arm casting stroke.

Anyway, learning experience for a frustrated me, with the "curve" shortened by the help from the members here.

 

[fatbillybob]

While there are some casting strokes that just will cause problems often that person will evolve to find combos that work for him, combos of different rod, line, leader, and fly. I think that if one fly fishes lots of different species and methods there is a reversion to the mean in casting method and tools selection.

 

[Robert Engleheart]

Never chatted with anyone who uses those about them. How do you combat/avoid the stuff they pick up and the sinking? I tried them and then went back to tying tapered mono leaders, but I remain open to the concept.

Don’t recall having had that issue, if I did I’d use some dressing on it after washing it.

 

[SurfnFish]

decades back, wife was having hinging problems when she first started out flyfishing...taking the advice of a savvy flyfisher, cut the loop off her floating line and nail knotted a 10" piece of stiff 60# test mono to the end of it finished with a perfection knot loop for leaders...end of hinging problem

 

[wanderingrichard]

decades back, wife was having hinging problems when she first started out flyfishing...taking the advice of a savvy flyfisher, cut the loop off her floating line and nail knotted a 10" piece of stiff 60# test mono to the end of it finished with a perfection knot loop for leaders...end of hinging problem

So, I guess I never made it all that obvious, but my issue was at the tippet end.

I think for my next learning experiment, I'm going to go with an all floro leader and tippet and see if that is more to my liking.

For those that go the maxima route, does ultra green really work better than chameleon?

 

[SurfnFish]

So, I guess I never made it all that obvious, but my issue was at the tippet end.

I think for my next learning experiment, I'm going to go with an all floro leader and tippet and see if that is more to my liking.

For those that go the maxima route, does ultra green really work better than chameleon?

I'd suggest looping on a factory leader and do some lawn casting..knowing the leader is fine, can focus on mechanics..

 

[wanderingrichard]

I'd suggest looping on a factory leader and do some lawn casting..knowing the leader is fine, can focus on mechanics..

That's in the works. My backyard isn't conducive to practice, but the large grassy area at the neighborhood playground is.

Also, I checked the SA website. Like I mentioned, I didn't think the WF5F that came with the combo had its weight far enough forward for the conditions I was fishing. (big water/open water taper vs creek /small water taper) And I found that they make a creek version of one of their lines that covers the what and where I had on Penns Creek. So, I'm heading this weekend to their local distributor to pick one up and give it a try. Hopefully it will bring that rod to life.

This is the line:

Amplitude Smooth Creek Trout | Scientific Anglers Fly Line

The Amplitude Smooth Creek Trout Taper is designed for casting in small creeks where your average weight forward lines doesn't make the cut.

www.scientificanglers.com

 

[BriGuy]

In the spirit of eliminating some of the variables, I'd ask a friend or fly shop employee to cast your setup. It may not prove much, but if the same setup hinges for them, you can assume it's equipment. If not, it might be casting mechanics.

Providing a beer to the friend or fly shop employee might improve the objectiveness of their evaluation.

 

[Jake Watrous]

For those that go the maxima route, does ultra green really work better than chameleon?

it’s a bit more supple, and I’ve got lots from steelhead season and Puget Sound fishing. Horses for courses, I also like the stiffness of chameleon for some things

 

[fatbillybob]

decades back, wife was having hinging problems when she first started out flyfishing...taking the advice of a savvy flyfisher, cut the loop off her floating line and nail knotted a 10" piece of stiff 60# test mono to the end of it finished with a perfection knot loop for leaders...end of hinging problem

That absolutely works but really made up for a casting flaw. It was easier to keep the flaw and cut the loop. There is no free lunch. Loops make certain things really easy and make certain things harder.