December 7th 1941
- Thread starter Paige
- Start date
flybill
Life of the Party
Me too! As a kid, would love to go back. I lived on Oahu, in Kaneohe, for a couple of years.. until we moved back here to WA.
Dad had two older brothers who fought in WWII. He didn't, having just finished fighter pilot training at Luke Airfield when the war ended. I was old enough to remember some very "disparaging" talk from my Uncles with respect to the Japanese, Germans... and pretty much anyone outside their narrowly defined WASP bubble. Thankfully I remember Dad being more open minded about others. Not sure how he'd process the societal changes going on now though.
Even so, Dad was a perceptive guy, and I think the main takeaway he got from WWII is that America got the job done, precisely because of our diversity.
1941 America was not the powerhouse it is today. The world largely saw us as a giant, unsophisticated, melting-pot, built from the dregs and refugees of other countries. Hirohito and Hitler, both proponents of racial/cultural purity, could not have been more wrong about what happened when American's from all racial/ethnic/cultural/religious/economic... etc backgrounds, we're able to put differences sufficiently aside. A lesson we are in danger of losing sight of today.
Never forget Pearl Harbor, but look what a great ally and country Japan is today. Would love to visit some day.
Even so, Dad was a perceptive guy, and I think the main takeaway he got from WWII is that America got the job done, precisely because of our diversity.
1941 America was not the powerhouse it is today. The world largely saw us as a giant, unsophisticated, melting-pot, built from the dregs and refugees of other countries. Hirohito and Hitler, both proponents of racial/cultural purity, could not have been more wrong about what happened when American's from all racial/ethnic/cultural/religious/economic... etc backgrounds, we're able to put differences sufficiently aside. A lesson we are in danger of losing sight of today.
Never forget Pearl Harbor, but look what a great ally and country Japan is today. Would love to visit some day.
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For younger folks, 9/11 was their Pearl Harbor, another seminal event that changed the world for the worse.
As to moral fiber, every day I follow what those incredibly brave folks in Ukraine are dealing with and bear witness to their incredible courage. And such courage is not generational, it is situational, and it all starts with the leaders. Which of ours would have refused 'a ride out' to a safer haven when the rockets started landing', and which ones would have pushed themselves to the front of the exit line.
"I would rather go to war with a bunch of sheep led by a lion, than a bunch of lions led by a sheep"
As to moral fiber, every day I follow what those incredibly brave folks in Ukraine are dealing with and bear witness to their incredible courage. And such courage is not generational, it is situational, and it all starts with the leaders. Which of ours would have refused 'a ride out' to a safer haven when the rockets started landing', and which ones would have pushed themselves to the front of the exit line.
"I would rather go to war with a bunch of sheep led by a lion, than a bunch of lions led by a sheep"
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History should be taught factually with zeitgeist in mind. Instead the current thing is presentism where we judge historical figures and events based on today's most progressive standards and decorum. That is just as dishonest as teaching history as a fairy tale. Everybody in the past is a full monster based on the present standards according to this agenda. It's no wonder so many young people think the country is some evil empire born of some kind of original sin of which today's populous must atone for and display their guilt at every turn. Only once you publicly divorce yourself from a sinful nation and recite the appropriate stolen land declaration etc can purity be attained. Now fast forward a century............. Yep, you did the things and you're still a monster. Thanks for playing the game, you lose.
History should be taught factually with zeitgeist in mind. Instead the current thing is presentism where we judge historical figures and events based on today's most progressive standards and decorum. That is just as dishonest as teaching history as a fairy tale. Everybody in the past is a full monster based on the present standards according to this agenda. It's no wonder so many young people think the country is some evil empire born of some kind of original sin of which today's populous must atone for and display their guilt at every turn. Only once you publicly divorce yourself from a sinful nation and recite the appropriate stolen land declaration etc can purity be attained. Now fast forward a century............. Yep, you did the things and you're still a monster. Thanks for playing the game, you lose.
Talk to my partner. She may disagree with that
. I get that you weren't trying to insult me. I appreciate that.I do try to be positive and forward thinking even against my basic instincts. Isn't that much of what what the USA is about?
I admit that looking at the past like it was better than today frustrates me to no end, as does the "kids today..." trope. Don't get me wrong, much of me wishes I was born in an earlier time when fish were plentiful and I could treat the world like it was my diaper. Having female children to root for and love has changed my perspective on how glorious the past was.
Mukman
Life of the Party
I don't have any additional opining or editorializing to add to many of the terrific comments made here, some of which I agree and some I don't. My comment is more of a macro (micro?) observation about this forum and forums everywhere: an innocuous original post regarding a seminal event in US and world history has resulted in 46 (now 47) posts with opinions that have included honor and appreciation, concerns of racism, classism, nationalism, parenting, education, US governance, confidence in the current generation and despair over the current generation.
I saw the original post and thought, "a day that will live in infamy". My thoughts didn't really go much deeper than appreciating the human toll that that day and the subsequent three years wrought. I don't really have a direction here, except the fascinating realization that someone could probably post a picture of a six pack of Bud Light and we might end up discussing the very same issues, somehow. Thread drift always seems to arrive at the same point.
My absolute favorite part of this thread (drift) is that all comments, however deeply felt, have been intelligent and most importantly, respectful and not attempting to shish-ka-bob anyone personally. Huzzah.
I saw the original post and thought, "a day that will live in infamy". My thoughts didn't really go much deeper than appreciating the human toll that that day and the subsequent three years wrought. I don't really have a direction here, except the fascinating realization that someone could probably post a picture of a six pack of Bud Light and we might end up discussing the very same issues, somehow. Thread drift always seems to arrive at the same point.
My absolute favorite part of this thread (drift) is that all comments, however deeply felt, have been intelligent and most importantly, respectful and not attempting to shish-ka-bob anyone personally. Huzzah.
Post a photo of bacon and watch what happens.
Cured, uncured, applewood smoked, Canadian (wait, that’s not bacon)…
Paige
Wishing I was fishing the Sauk
Oh shit.
And on that December 9 day the battle of the 49th parallel began. Losses were incurred on both sides as swine stocks dwindled in a wartime ration scenario that rocked even the mighty Wendy's chain as they were forced to discontinue the Baconator sandwich to conserve bacon for the troops on the front lines.
I believe it's fair to say that December 7th 1941 and the subsequent result of three US territories being attacked, with two being occupied by enemy forces, and the US west coast being bombed and shelled quickly changed the US from an isolationist, 2nd rate world economic and military power to the most powerful economic and military power on the the planet. There was a national call to service with tremendous sacrifice that had to be made by the US armed forces and civilians to achieve victory. The US then rebuilt two of our mortal enemies from that conflict to become close allies, and the US did the heavy lifting to establish the United Nations in an attempt to prevent future occurrences. I would call that a significant period in both national and world history with lessons learned that every generation far into the future should be very knowledgeable about.
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Let me present a different way to think about this as I wait in line. This perspective is clearly informed/ biased by pages 8-10 of A People's History:
I do not care for the need for moral purity or for judging people today for the sins of their fathers. I think that we very much agree on that point. I very much do care about improving the historical data that we use when making decisions today. To do so, I must acknowledge the leaders of the dominant culture and their effect on our country and world. Since these very leaders got to define the time periods that they ruled, their history will skew towards viewing them in a positive light. I agree that there are some that thrive on claiming injury from a history that I played no part in. Having grown up as a free lunch eligible kid, my children's perspectives on inequities can be tough for me to swallow. That is a separate but connected issue to expanding upon the fairly tale history that I was taught.
It's possible to attempt to look through the experiences of the population as a whole and not just those that were able to document history. The history of the US that I was taught was written solely from the perspective of the ruling class. It spoke of all of the successes of our nation but made little mention of the reality of the majority of people. To use this narrow version of history to inform decisions would lead to more decisions that disregarded the reality of the majority of people in the same way the historical decisions did. The zeitgeist of much of the population was different from that of the rulers and was cancelled from history because most of the population did not have the power to write the official history. In fact, most of the actual progress made in our country has been in direct opposition to the defining spirit of America as defined in the history books of my youth. MLK was correct in that the arc of history does bend towards justice. The curve of the US is much sharper than that of most other countries. We have our issues but the speed of our curve is what defines us.
I would much rather have my kids grow up today than in 1941. They would be second or third class citizens in 1941. Looking at the zeitgeist of 1941 through the eyes of my wife or kids if they were alive in 1941, I can see that their perspective would be unlikely to be in line with the spirit of the country as described to me. In fact, their perspective would likely be completely unrepresented if not antithetical to the actual zeitgeist.
The history that I read about in school was the very definition of cancel culture. I choose to expand the historical perspective that I use to include those that were historically cancelled. If you look, you can find their stories and their perspectives. Acknowledging the totality of American history does not mean that you must divorce yourself from the nation. I contend that examining the totality of our history shows how our nation has been able to constantly improve. To chart the angle of this improvement, you must be able to identify the issues and problems that have been solved or improved.
One more thought:
It may also be that leaders of nations will always have a disproportionate share of "monsters". In fact, I would actually make that case. I believe that we select for monstrous people in positions of power. That is one place that we have not really improved in my opinion. It's a pretty easy case to be made given the leaders that we see today. OTOH, I am not running for office any time soon.
TicTokCroc
Sunkist and Sudafed
I would say we need "monsters" in certain aspects because otherwise we would be weak, and weakness brings misery. They have to be the right kind of monster though. Like the sheepdog in the sheep/wolf equation, the warrior in the garden, not the gardener in the war etc etc. The monster is needed but you have to control it. I worry about the constant attack on masculinity in our society.
