wanderingrichard
Life of the Party
15 Feb what year ?
December 7th 1941
- Thread starter Paige
- Start date
Paige
Wishing I was fishing the Sauk
Paige
Wishing I was fishing the Sauk
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While I agree that the education system in this country is failing and likely has failed young people it's still not an excuse or reason to shirk accountability. The compendium of human knowledge is at your fingertips. All one needs is curiosity and time away from the ever present brainwashing program of television and social media.
"Fat and stupid is no way to go through life son."
Dean Wormer
Faber College
While I agree that the education system in this country is failing and likely has failed young people it's still not an excuse or reason to shirk accountability. The compendium of human knowledge is at your fingertips. All one needs is curiosity and time away from the ever present brainwashing program of television and social media.
"Fat and stupid is no way to go through life son."
Dean Wormer
Faber College
Paige
Wishing I was fishing the Sauk
So what does the assassination of Julius Caesar have to do with American history?
And WHO declaring covid a pandemic is far less an issue than a foreign nation attacking the United States of America on American soil, at least to me.
Especially if the former president would have actually done his job at the beginning, maybe 1 million Americans wouldn't have died!
Fun Holidays on February 15
Gumdrop Day?
I see we've forgotten the Maine.
That you don’t see Covid being declared a pandemic as equally relevant or significant is kind of the point. To you it may not be, but to others it may be far more impactful. I guarantee it changed public education in this country for at least a generation, forever affected the education and skills of the students who basically lost 1.5 years of education, and altered the US and world economy for some time to come. The effects of December 7 aren’t as recent, proximate, or visible to younger folks.
As for Caesar, I’m oversimplifying, but that death led to the Byzantine Empire, which begat the Ottoman Empire and brought Islam, the crusades, etc. The Renaissance is mixed up in there, too. The fall of the Ottomans was a huge part of WWI (and some of our current problems in that part of the world), WWI was a root cause of WW2...personally I see some relevance in those things to US history.
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I have a different perspective on this discussion:
June 19 was never taught to me in school. I have never honored that day. Pearl Harbor Day was and I have. This is just one example of historic days and events that have been cancelled in history.
I have 2 kids in high school. They have recieved an excellent education. This is due to my zip code but that is how it has always been; more predictive of success than most other factors. One is in the process of choosing college.
I find it hard to get upset that more isn't made of the day 81 years later and disparage American public institutions for it. In so many ways we have improved as a nation since 1941. I appreciate that the nations reaction to Pearl Harbor allowed for the nation to improve. Since the we have improved so much that my daughter is being accepted to schools and being offered scholarships that would not have been available to her in 1941, or even 1971 due to reasons (multiple) that have nothing to do with merit.
"The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice." - Martin Luther King
June 19 was never taught to me in school. I have never honored that day. Pearl Harbor Day was and I have. This is just one example of historic days and events that have been cancelled in history.
I have 2 kids in high school. They have recieved an excellent education. This is due to my zip code but that is how it has always been; more predictive of success than most other factors. One is in the process of choosing college.
I find it hard to get upset that more isn't made of the day 81 years later and disparage American public institutions for it. In so many ways we have improved as a nation since 1941. I appreciate that the nations reaction to Pearl Harbor allowed for the nation to improve. Since the we have improved so much that my daughter is being accepted to schools and being offered scholarships that would not have been available to her in 1941, or even 1971 due to reasons (multiple) that have nothing to do with merit.
"The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice." - Martin Luther King
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They estimate 180,000 WW2 vets are still alive today. The debt we owe them is immense, and forgetting this day while there is still one of them alive is evidence of a lack of character. Arguing over which days in history made more of a difference, is for philosophers, and doesn't honor anyone, as far as I can see.
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Agreed. Still relevant. Even when all the vets of said war are gone. Still relevant.
Agreed. Still relevant. Even when all the vets of said war are gone. Still relevant.
Is forgetting December 7 the same as forgetting the war and the sacrifices made? I'm not sure I buy that logic. I, for example, couldn't tell you which days the Battle of the Bulge took place, but I know of and honor the sacrifices made on those dark days. Dec 7 was a despicable unprovoked sneak attack that needlessly murdered many, many people. It was not the war itself.
Working with high schoolers on a daily basis I doubt very much many young people in the United States are unaware of the significance of World War 2 and the sacrifices made, and I doubt many lack respect for those same things. They may not know the dates, but they know the people and their contributions. I teach English, but my sophomore students just got done reading a book about the Holocaust, and my seniors are in the middle of reading a book about the difficulties a soldier in Vietnam has in communicating what they experienced and sacrificed.
The argument, as you term it, wasn't about which day is more significant or relevant, but rather why not everyone talks about or memorializes a particular day with the same passion others feel for it. Paige said, among other things, that our country has lost its soul and has no class because they didn’t see December 7 discussed in the media to their satisfaction. I disagree with that premise and claims, but I get the sense that this is getting no one anywhere, so I’m out.
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Paige
Wishing I was fishing the Sauk
Sorry but our 1st world problems today are far simpler than what people endured during WWII or WWI.
I can guarantee to you that WWII was way more impactfull to the US economy than covid. In the end it was what made the US the greatest nation in the world!
Todays generation would never survive what they endured!
For Christ sake, people couldn't even wear a mask to save their owne children let alone their neibors!
And to think that WWII didnt impact the K-12 children and older is kinda ignorant! Guess what, my grandparents where a major influence to my parents during WWII and after. They didnt let the disruption effect their education either. It made them tough, resilient, independent, self motivated and gave them a work effort that has effected me and my sisters.
Todays parents clearly dont know how to be parents, and expect the education systems to do it for them. I know some that took the opertunity and ran with it and their children flourished, others took it as a hindrance and their children floundered.
How well do you think todays families would survive on all the food rations, gass rations and every ration on pretty much every necessity to survive if those from WWII were imposed today?
I think most in the US couldn't survive whats going on in Ukraine l let alone a majore WW.
I was in Honolulu last December 7, and I can still feel the reverence. Many veterans returned to honor the dead. The date is important to THEM. I think it should be important to us for that reason. Many things happened over the next four years that were important, but nothing caused as much injury to the armed forces of the US as the crippling of the pacific fleet at Pearl Harbor. It brought us unwillingly into a brutal war that could otherwise have been avoided completely.
The European war was a separate issue, but imagine if we hadn't been forced to divide our attention between two major conflicts how different that might have been.
The European war was a separate issue, but imagine if we hadn't been forced to divide our attention between two major conflicts how different that might have been.
I believe that todays America would prevail in todays environment. The increased talent available due to societal changes post 1941 would prevail in the end. My kids know far more about history than I ever did at their age. It just is no longer presented as a fairytale. Real life is not a fairytale.
Honestly, as a parent, I will tell you that in soooo many ways parenting is far superior to my parents or my friends parents or their parents. The premise that the US is going backwards is only defensible from a very narrow perspective. My daughters have rights and oportunities that were not available then. The parets in 1941 were not responsible for that improvement. Their children may have been to some extent but the adaptive, forward facing nature of the USA generates progress.
I understand that you would like more made of the day. You may want more parades or media attention. I recomend that you make more of it. Go do it! It's the USA, you can do it! The media is run by a bunch of 50 year olds, not "young people".
I don't understand tearing down the modern USA because of a hypothetical strawman scenario where todays America fails. The scenario and outcome is imaginary. Todays America is better than it has ever been. The lesson that I take is that we would not have had the ability to improve so much post 1941 if we had not won WWII. I am thankful for that.
Honor the day. You should. We all should.
If anyone thinks December 7th is insignificant, look at where we are today. Socialism infiltrates our society. What did we not learn…? Japan‘s goal was to control all of Asia. Today it’s probably China and beyond Asia. Did Germany and Italy attack us, no, Japan did. Granted the interment camps we’re wrong, but that’s in hindsight. At the time, what you have done? If we’re attacked tomorrow, what will you do…?
Paige
Wishing I was fishing the Sauk
I like that you like to look at the world through rose colored glasses, and you clearly have raised some great kids and have given them the tools to become independent intelligent citizens!
But the last 2 years have proved the we as a society are way too selfish to endure what those of WWII did. Far too many parents rely on others to teach their children the life lessons needed to be successful.
TicTokCroc
Sunkist and Sudafed
DimeBrite
Saltwater fly fisherman
January 9, 2009
Satoshi Nakamoto releases version 0.1 Bitcoin code into an unsuspecting society.
On a more serious note, Elvis performed a concert to raise the money to construct the memorial for the USS Arizona Memorial. I visited there early one morning on the first tour boat, very solemn. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a terrible day for America. An old sailor who survived the attack told me he was sure the entire Hawaiian Island chain would be invaded. Nothing was certain after that day except fear.
Satoshi Nakamoto releases version 0.1 Bitcoin code into an unsuspecting society.
On a more serious note, Elvis performed a concert to raise the money to construct the memorial for the USS Arizona Memorial. I visited there early one morning on the first tour boat, very solemn. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a terrible day for America. An old sailor who survived the attack told me he was sure the entire Hawaiian Island chain would be invaded. Nothing was certain after that day except fear.
No rose colred glasses. That is just insulting. It isn't 1941. You can't expect it to be.
If it were 1941, my kids would not have the oportunities they do for both gender and racial reasons. My kids would not be available as a resource for the country in the way they are now. Those are facts seen through the clear lense of history.
The pigmented glasses are those that look back and disregard the portions of America that don't fit the fairy tail that yesterday was better than tomorrow ca be. The America of 1941 had all sorts of problems that we do not today. It was a different but not necessarily a better nation.
While I agree that the last 2 years have been awful, consider the America of 1941. We had Jim Crow laws. Schools were legally segrgated. Southerners white politicians (and their contituancy) were so entitled and selfish that they fillibustered attempts to end poll taxes in 1942. Poll taxes continued into the 1960's. Women had only had the right to vote for 20 years and were not equal in any part of society.
1941 was great if you were born an affluent white man. Viewed through todays lense, we were run by a group of exceptionally entitled, selfish, immoral men who used their power to supress women, minorities and the underprivaledged. There was one female senator and she originally got the job because her husband was a senato and died. She was racist. So there is that.
I am not sure how the events of the lsst 2 years compare to an institutionslized caste system that made over 50% of the population second class citizens or worse.
Even with the level of selfishness that represents, we won WWII. I don't think the rise of tik tok compares to senators fillibustering to keep poll taxes in place. I will say that poll taxes and support for them are far more indicitive of a countries weakness than 15 year olds broadcasting their dance moves.
I respect what the soldiers did and how the country responded. If the US can come together in spite of all that ailed us in 1941, I think that we could band together today.
mems
Steelhead
Pearl Harbor is a fascinating day in our History. I helped write curriculum for the State of Hawaii on the subject and got to work with the park service and was fortunate to meet surviving service men from that day and hear their personal stories. I also wrote curriculum on Japanese internment and how that event changed Hawaii and the Loyal Japanese Americans who formed the 442nd and 100th battalion to fight for the country that ignored their constitutional rights. As a teacher of History for 40 years it is important to know where we came from and to have a greater grasp on understanding where we need to go both as a country and as a human race. We face serious challenges in the future, education is crucial to our collective survival.
