Very good, but I think the point is being missed, I think the point is if you are going to make an authoritative statement of fact, you should provide the source for that statement, at least, that is how I was trained.
CA Seals and Sealions eating all of WA Springers?
- Thread starter The Coho King
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Very good, but I think the point is being missed, I think the point is if you are going to make an authoritative statement of fact, you should provide the source for that statement, at least, that is how I was trained.
Not sure what you're talking about. Evan asked for this to get back on track so I was just sharing a neat fact I learned about pinniped predation on Nisqually steelhead smolts today!
Paige
Wishing I was fishing the Sauk
But the was nothing about Chinook smolts, which are roughly half the size of Steelhead smolts.
Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought I detected a fair bit of snark (ie, by telling us how quickly and with what little effort you found everything), but I could well have been wrong, in which case, my sincerest apologies. My overall statement with regards to sourcing, which @Dustin Chromers did not provide, stands.
This is true in an academic setting among academics which I'm aware is your wheelhouse and yes, proper training. This is not an academic setting. Furthermore the screaming for source over a great many things much of the time is used to stifle conversation or debate or discourage folks from participating. And it basically worked as I had little wish to engage any further on the topic save for your post as it's congenial and genuine. My knowledge of these studies came to me through a conversation with a qualified expert. Am I to document that conversation to participate in a fishing forum (a non academic setting)? Yes I've read the studies but don't intend to keep them on speed dial so to speak for some source nazi on a fishing forum. There is a time and place for such things and courtesy goes a long ways. Had you asked I would have been happy to provide you some sources. Then again you would probably frame your request with more than two words indicating genuine interest.
In fact source Nazis would demand a paper from Newton himself to prove gravity was real in some cases. Then they might go onto invalidate your understanding of gravity because I'm not a physicist and Newton might be attacked as not reputable because everyone knows gravity is god's way of separating men and birds and therefore a supernatural phenomenon. The argument of a place of authority is an abused and bullshit position to do nothing more than to shut down a discussion. If a poster who has a history of posts of that nature is so interested they can do some legwork for themselves. Let them invest some time rather than yell "source!" as a means to be unconstructive and waste other people's time. Paige had no issue elaborating and even sharpening or correcting my statement to pear it down to steelhead smolt as he probably was familiar with the same set of work.
Now if you will all excuse me I'm in the middle of reading some wonderful work by Philip Morris on how cigarettes technically don't cause cancer. I mean I gotta believe it cause they are in the business.
This is true and I welcome the correction as it was in good faith and for the betterment of the discussion.
Ummmm.....You have to cite authoritative statements of fact in this thread. For example, "chinook smolts, which are roughly half the size of steelhead smolts". You can't say that without citing a source.
But you're right - it's specific to steelhead and not nookies. I'll follow up on this topic after I've had a chance to digest Moore et al tonight. Rest assured, the quest for knowledge continues!!
Seriously though, it's an interesting question - a good one and quite pertinent.
Chinook smolts favor estuary habitats that steelhead smolts do not utilize if I recall correctly. Chinook tend to stay in estuaries for around 6 weeks, and prefer shallow marshy flats that offer some protection, foraging pinnipeds would have difficulty in that type of environment one might think.
I think Steelhead smolts blow right through estuaries, compatatively speaking, and do not utilize the marshy flats like Chinook.
Obligatory citing info below, in regards to Chinook and estuaries.
I think Steelhead smolts blow right through estuaries, compatatively speaking, and do not utilize the marshy flats like Chinook.
Obligatory citing info below, in regards to Chinook and estuaries.
Chinook salmon exhibit long-term rearing and early marine growth in the Fraser River, British Columbia, a large urban estuary
Estuaries represent a transition zone for salmon migrating from fresh water to marine waters, yet their contribution to juvenile growth is poorly quantified. Here, we use genetic stock identification and otolith analyses to quantify estuarine habitat use by Chinook salmon (Oncorhynchus...
cdnsciencepub.com
Source nazis - really?
I did ask - and not with 2 words (that might have been someone else. My exact words were "Though I don't have a dog in this fight, I too would be very interested in @Dustin Chromers sources, the more evidence and confirming studies, the stronger the argument. On the other hand, if anyone has contradictory evidence, it would be useful to see that." #86
Apology accepted.
Yes, source Nazis. Also those that argue in bad faith from a position of authority. "you can't define this because you are not that." Both are bad faith positions and not worth entertaining.
I do apologize as I did see your post but at that time had decided to not engage any further here which I'm sure would please a couple of people. Are you debating the facts or do you just want me to dig around for you as an exercise? The who moves who approach. Neither you or Flymph move me. I think it's well established that what I stated (with Paige's correction for clarity) is in fact well documented. I will not be citing my sources to please a peanut gallery of nit picking bad faith bullshit attempts to derail the statement.
Every smolt is sacred
Every smolt is great
If any smolt is seal food
The Flying Spaghetti Monster gets pissed
www.outdoorlife.com
This guy made it out of the estuary alive.
Every smolt is great
If any smolt is seal food
The Flying Spaghetti Monster gets pissed
B.C. Angler Releases 105-Pound Chinook Salmon That Could've Been a World Record
A veteran salmon angler from British Columbia landed—and released—one of the biggest Chinook salmon ever caught.
www.outdoorlife.com
This guy made it out of the estuary alive.
The sea lions aren’t congregating at Bonneville and Willamette Falls in significant numbers anymore. They moved to other areas this year. If the success of the program continues, and also works in the other areas when traps are moved there, I’d say things are working well. Those are big ifs, but the very early data has been pretty good.
Flymph
Steelhead
Matt: This excerpt from NOAA Fisheries: The Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife estimates that sea lion removals at Bonneville Dam though 2018 have prevented the loss of 30,212 to 36,848 salmon and steelhead. In November 2018, we issued the State of Oregon a second authorization to remove predatory sea lions at Willamette Falls.
Question? Haven't Salmon and Steelhead numbers been in decline since 2018?
A Washington State report put it bluntly: Because of the devastating effects of climate change and deteriorating habitats, several species of salmon in the Pacific Northwest are “on the brink of extinction.”
Of the 14 species of salmon and steelhead trout in Washington State that have been deemed endangered and are protected under the Endangered Species Act, 10 are lagging recovery goals and five of those are considered “in crisis,” according to the 2020 State of Salmon in Watersheds report, which was released last week.
These two articles seem to contradict each other. If killing more and more sea lions is saving salmon why are the salmon still on the brink of extinction?
Sea lion removals increased significantly in 2020, when NOAA finalized permits to the states and tribes allowing them to kill sea lions under the new MMPA amendment. The most important part of that was allowing stellar sea lion removal and not requiring individual animals to be identified as salmon eaters.
The numbers of fish saved are significant. Below is a chart showing the number of fish consumed by California sea lions, and predicted future impacts from CSLs.
There are many factors impacting salmon and steelhead returns. Those returns can still decline when sea lion removals have positive effects.
JS
Mankie Old Chum
Two questions:
1. Is this total removals from both state and tribal efforts?
2. How many of the removals were relocations as opposed to lethal removal?
It would seem to me that the non-lethal removal is somewhat of a waste of time due to this….
“ODFW spent five weeks in February and March relocating 10 California sea lions to a beach south of Newport, Oregon, approximately 210 miles away, only to see the animals return within four to six days. One of the sea lions was even captured and relocated to the coast twice, but swam back both times.
Shaun Clements, ODFW senior policy adviser, said the problem is becoming increasingly dire as Upper Willamette Basin steelhead are pushed to the brink of extinction. This year's run currently stands at 1,338 steelhead — slightly higher than 2017, but far below historic steelhead returns that often topped 10,000 fish.”
Sea lions aren’t a good fit for hunting. Evidently they are often very heavily contaminated with a variety of heavy metals and other yuckiness that is bad enough that WDFW employees have to wear PPE to handle the meat and organs. Besides that, there are some added dangers when dealing with firearm safety on and around federally navigable waters.
