2024 NOF

[Chris Johnson]

It has been talked about for over 20yrs and well documented, somewhere.

I don't know how you received my question, but it was asked out of genuine curiosity, no malice intended.
I found this study from the Cowlitz: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165783623002412.

From the discussion: Coho Salmon survival was high after C&R with no clear evidence for differences in recapture rates between control and treatment fish. Stuby (2002) reported 15 % C&R mortality for Coho Salmon caught on lures, but our results suggest C&R recreational fisheries that primarily target Coho Salmon with lures and jigs should be expected to have negligible impacts on prespawning survival. It was unclear whether Coho Salmon fisheries that rely on bait should be expected to increase prespawning mortality because we angled few Coho Salmon with bait, which was less effective in the fishery. However, we did find indirect evidence that terminal tackle may influence Coho Salmon survival. Specifically, use of bait increased the probability of hooking fish in critical locations. Vincent-Lang et al. (1993) estimated 11.7 % C&R mortality for Coho Salmon angled using bait and found hook location significantly affected survival rates.

 

[Smalma]

Coho like Chinook become a much "tougher" fish once their scales become "set". As the fish reach maturity part of the process is the scales become more deeply embed to the point where they provide durable protection from a variety of injuries.

When looking at hooking studies for coho or Chinook the scale condition is a critical factor. If the fish is readily shedding scales as being handled (often the case in the salt) the handling mortality will be on the upper range of reported impacts.

Curt

 

[Matt B]

Coho like Chinook become a much "tougher" fish once their scales become "set". As the fish reach maturity part of the process is the scales become more deeply embed to the point where they provide durable protection from a variety of injuries.

When looking at hooking studies for coho or Chinook the scale condition is a critical factor. If the fish is readily shedding scales as being handled (often the case in the salt) the handling mortality will be on the upper range of reported impacts.

Curt

Observationally I don't think anyone is disputing that ocean coho tend to shed a lot of scales in most handling situations, I just don't think we really know how that translates into outcomes for fish. It's reasonable that it does them no favors. It does seem like mortality rates are sort of all over the place in the literature. I found this. https://psf.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Download-PDF436-1.pdf page 10 cites a 6% mortality rate for coho--with many caveats

 

[Paige]

I don't know how you received my question, but it was asked out of genuine curiosity, no malice intended.
I found this study from the Cowlitz: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165783623002412.

From the discussion: Coho Salmon survival was high after C&R with no clear evidence for differences in recapture rates between control and treatment fish. Stuby (2002) reported 15 % C&R mortality for Coho Salmon caught on lures, but our results suggest C&R recreational fisheries that primarily target Coho Salmon with lures and jigs should be expected to have negligible impacts on prespawning survival. It was unclear whether Coho Salmon fisheries that rely on bait should be expected to increase prespawning mortality because we angled few Coho Salmon with bait, which was less effective in the fishery. However, we did find indirect evidence that terminal tackle may influence Coho Salmon survival. Specifically, use of bait increased the probability of hooking fish in critical locations. Vincent-Lang et al. (1993) estimated 11.7 % C&R mortality for Coho Salmon angled using bait and found hook location significantly affected survival rates.

No malice was taken, as Curt stated fresh water toughens them up, it's in the open ocean thats the issue.
I think, and I could be wrong, the data used is on run forcast, charter encouters vs dam passage. There was tons of discussions on PP back in the day when I followed it.

 

[Salmo_g]

Director Susewind agreed to unequal allocation of the allowable impacts on natural-origin Stillaguamish chinook and this was the primary factor limiting recreational fisheries for 2022-23. – Fish Northwest

fishnorthwest.org

I have to ask those on here more knowledgeable about fisheries management than I am if there is some truth to this press release or is it politically partisan demagoguery intended to lay blame where it does not belong. I keep wondering why the 2022-2023 Chinook seasons were so limiting compared to the 2019-2020, and even 2021-2022 seasons (At least on paper, as I understand most ended up shutting early due to quota being reached).

Director Susewind and Gov. Inslee are not the friends of recreational anglers. WDFW has for years now consistently been using conservation as cover for caving in to treaty tribal demands.

 

[G_Smolt]

I don't know how you received my question, but it was asked out of genuine curiosity, no malice intended.
I found this study from the Cowlitz: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165783623002412.

From the discussion: Coho Salmon survival was high after C&R with no clear evidence for differences in recapture rates between control and treatment fish. Stuby (2002) reported 15 % C&R mortality for Coho Salmon caught on lures, but our results suggest C&R recreational fisheries that primarily target Coho Salmon with lures and jigs should be expected to have negligible impacts on prespawning survival. It was unclear whether Coho Salmon fisheries that rely on bait should be expected to increase prespawning mortality because we angled few Coho Salmon with bait, which was less effective in the fishery. However, we did find indirect evidence that terminal tackle may influence Coho Salmon survival. Specifically, use of bait increased the probability of hooking fish in critical locations. Vincent-Lang et al. (1993) estimated 11.7 % C&R mortality for Coho Salmon angled using bait and found hook location significantly affected survival rates.

Those studies were in freshwater, not salt, which is probably germane to the discussion. Vincent-Lang et al found an extremely high mortality in the transition zone between salt and fresh, with fish "hardening up" after osmocompetence was achieved. Interestingly enough, Stuby did NOT find a difference in mortalities as a function of saltwater proximity. I'm pretty familiar with both of those studies, as I just cited them both for a submitted comment to the ADFG BOF in support of a proposal to eliminate bait from a critical staging area for coho in one particular river (it was carried 7-0)

I don't recall seeing any recent studies on saltwater-caught mortality of coho. There are a few from the late 50's to early 90's which show large variation in mortality as a function of fish size/age, but none that examine delayed mortality or sublethal effects of a single hooking instance, much less multiple events.

You'd think we'd have this information by now, right?

 

[Salmo_g]

You'd think we'd have this information by now, right?

Agencies seem to not want to know things that can only hinder fishing.

 

[_WW_]

As soon as the tribes want to know it'll get figured out lickety split.

 

[jasmillo]

I think the mortality rate for CnR coho has a direct coorelation to the distance dragged up on the beach when landed. Let’s say 5% for every foot which means the mortality rate for the average WA beach fisher is probably 50%. At least they’re getting their cardio in running 60 feet up the beach dragging a coho with 50 feet of line out.

Add another 10% if the fish is then kick rolled back into the drink.

Until that practice changes, letting folks just keep the first two fish they catch is probably best for the fishery.

 

[speedbird]

I think the mortality rate for CnR coho has a direct coorelation to the distance dragged up on the beach when landed. Let’s say 5% for every foot which means the mortality rate for the average WA beach fisher is probably 50%. At least they’re getting their cardio in running 60 feet up the beach dragging a coho with 50 feet of line out.

Add another 10% if the fish is then kick rolled back into the drink.

Until that practice changes, letting folks just keep the first two fish they catch is probably best for the fishery.

Add in the amount of knotted nets still on the water in the boats, oversized hooks taking out eyes and puncturing arteries, heavy usage of bait, and I have to agree.

It’s interesting seeing the different ethics anglers have towards this topic. I recall overhearing some fly anglers at a popular beach last weekend area 9 was open talking about how one of them hooked a wild, but felt uncomfortable keeping it. My personal ethics lean towards keeping the fish in this particular fishery: I know what my impact is when the fish comes home with me, but if I let it go, I can go home having killed ten fish without knowing it, or having killed zero fish. I prefer the certainty of knowing the only dead fish at my hands will be ethically consumed.

When it comes to rivers, I’m more comfortable releasing fish and “high grading” my harvest for the aforementioned set scales, and also the more accurate science on cnr mortality. On small systems like in the OP, I would release all wild fish (if I caught any). I try to limit myself to ten fish released when I do chums in rivers as well. They’re my favorite fish to chase in the river (I think I get demerits for that?) but do I really need to catch and release 30 chum all day?

I haven’t made my mind up about wild trout harvest. I follow the common fly fisherman ethic of cnr for river systems just because I know how poorly managed harvest is, but if I better understood the population dynamics in the particular system I fish I would keep the first two legal fish I caught instead of catch and release.

 

[Pink Nighty]

Add in the amount of knotted nets still on the water in the boats, oversized hooks taking out eyes and puncturing arteries, heavy usage of bait, and I have to agree.

It’s interesting seeing the different ethics anglers have towards this topic. I recall overhearing some fly anglers at a popular beach last weekend area 9 was open talking about how one of them hooked a wild, but felt uncomfortable keeping it. My personal ethics lean towards keeping the fish in this particular fishery: I know what my impact is when the fish comes home with me, but if I let it go, I can go home having killed ten fish without knowing it, or having killed zero fish. I prefer the certainty of knowing the only dead fish at my hands will be ethically consumed.

When it comes to rivers, I’m more comfortable releasing fish and “high grading” my harvest for the aforementioned set scales, and also the more accurate science on cnr mortality. On small systems like in the OP, I would release all wild fish (if I caught any). I try to limit myself to ten fish released when I do chums in rivers as well. They’re my favorite fish to chase in the river (I think I get demerits for that?) but do I really need to catch and release 30 chum all day?

I haven’t made my mind up about wild trout harvest. I follow the common fly fisherman ethic of cnr for river systems just because I know how poorly managed harvest is, but if I better understood the population dynamics in the particular system I fish I would keep the first two legal fish I caught instead of catch and release.

I get and support this logic for fisheries where the intent is to harvest. I personally dont find it ethical to high grade threatened species, and that includes cycling through wild fish searching for a clipped fish.

In fisheries like wild river trout, where you presumably are fishing for experience over harvest, I dont understand the logic of harvesting 2 to avoid potentially killing more. You could potentially hook 100 trout and kill zero as likely as you are to kill 10. I get what you're saying, the unknown mortality would weigh on you. I guess for me, the known mortality would weigh on me more.

 

[HauntedByWaters]

The way I calculate my impact on coho is I go fishing and maybe release a handful a year because I am no fishing God and I have a full time job, I then go to the grocery stores and see a whole bunch of them for sale and pat myself on the back for not buying them and supporting the net harvest of millions of coho.

 

[DimeBrite]

Barbless hooks + rubberized nets + release tool & no touching = Very High Coho Survival

 

[speedbird]

I get and support this logic for fisheries where the intent is to harvest. I personally dont find it ethical to high grade threatened species, and that includes cycling through wild fish searching for a clipped fish.

In fisheries like wild river trout, where you presumably are fishing for experience over harvest, I dont understand the logic of harvesting 2 to avoid potentially killing more. You could potentially hook 100 trout and kill zero as likely as you are to kill 10. I get what you're saying, the unknown mortality would weigh on you. I guess for me, the known mortality would weigh on me more.

I get that logic. Would you also oppose catch and release seasons on threatened fish?

 

[Stonedfish]

I’d be interested to see what @Nick Clayton and @Chris Bellows have seen in regards to saltwater coho catch and release and mortality if any while doing their guided trips.
SF

 

[Nick Clayton]

I’d be interested to see what @Nick Clayton and @Chris Bellows have seen in regards to saltwater coho catch and release and mortality if any while doing their guided trips.
SF

Anecdotal of course, but I would one hundred percent agree with the thought that coho don't cnr super well. As you mentioned, they hit the net and it's just massive scale explosion. Plus they have a tendency to go ape shit in the net, which often seems to result in a hook sticking them someplace unpleasant,or something similar. I absolutely hate having to release wild coho on the ocean for that reason. I've unfortunately seen more than Id care to admit float away, even when released quickly.

It's such a balancing act on a charter. Most of those customers are looking to bring home a limit of fish, and identifying them prior to netting is often times next to impossible. It's a can't win scenario....leave them hooked up longer and up the chances of them tiring out more, injuring themselves, or a second hook catching an eyeball or gill or something if fishing two hooks, ..or put them in the net and watch the scales explode.

Fishing with flies and single hooks and focusing on cnr its definitely easier to release them quickly often without touching or netting them, but many gear charters it never seems to work out as well.

I know the state says the numbers don't work with just keeping the first two coho and being done, and that's likely true on paper, but IME it would be a better route in the real world. Just my opinion of course

 

[Pink Nighty]

I get that logic. Would you also oppose catch and release seasons on threatened fish?

No, I think we should take care to use best practices to ensure safe release, regardless of species. I acknowledge it's a blood sport and some of my releases die

 

[Stonedfish]

Add in the amount of knotted nets still on the water in the boats, oversized hooks taking out eyes and puncturing arteries, heavy usage of bait, and I have to agree.

It’s interesting seeing the different ethics anglers have towards this topic. I recall overhearing some fly anglers at a popular beach last weekend area 9 was open talking about how one of them hooked a wild, but felt uncomfortable keeping it. My personal ethics lean towards keeping the fish in this particular fishery: I know what my impact is when the fish comes home with me, but if I let it go, I can go home having killed ten fish without knowing it, or having killed zero fish. I prefer the certainty of knowing the only dead fish at my hands will be ethically consumed.

When it comes to rivers, I’m more comfortable releasing fish and “high grading” my harvest for the aforementioned set scales, and also the more accurate science on cnr mortality. On small systems like in the OP, I would release all wild fish (if I caught any). I try to limit myself to ten fish released when I do chums in rivers as well. They’re my favorite fish to chase in the river (I think I get demerits for that?) but do I really need to catch and release 30 chum all day?

I haven’t made my mind up about wild trout harvest. I follow the common fly fisherman ethic of cnr for river systems just because I know how poorly managed harvest is, but if I better understood the population dynamics in the particular system I fish I would keep the first two legal fish I caught instead of catch and release.

That is a tough one regarding fishing the sound, especially since there is no guarantee that a unclipped fish is truly wild.
I bonked a few smaller unclipped coho this past summer for the bbq and didn’t feel bad about doing so.
SF

 

[Smalma]

Nick is right generally going to the first two coho landed does not result in and reduction in the number of wild coho killed. I have ran the number a number of times. It might be possible that the first coho might work but not sure how acceptable a one coho limit would be, especially if the first coho happen to be 10" juvenile or 15 inch jack.

But heck, have the State model such a season and see how it flies.
Curt

 

[Nick Clayton]

Nick is right generally going to the first two coho landed does not result in and reduction in the number of wild coho killed. I have ran the number a number of times. It might be possible that the first coho might work but not sure how acceptable a one coho limit would be, especially if the first coho happen to be 10" juvenile or 15 inch jack.

But heck, have the State model such a season and see how it flies.
Curt

I do strongly believe there is a very big disconnect between what the state does on paper vs what actually happens in the real world. Of course it's impossible to measure this sort of thing since it includes human error, human motives etc etc. But I have released thousands of coho on my boats, and have fished next to many, many other charters who have done the same and there are just so many factors that can't be accounted for on paper.

I have watched plenty of coho that were hooked, landed, and released in less than a minute float away without ever being touched. I've watched how many "sports" anglers treat fish when they release them. I've sadly watched plenty of charters and how they treat them. I've also watched large charter boats who are netting these fish with 15' long nets so they can reach the water and have zero way to identify those fish prior to bringing them all the way up to the rail and seen the results of that first hand so many times.

Not trying to throw anyone under the bus, lord knows my job has been responsible for more than the average impact when it comes to wild fish not surviving. Just pointing out that there is math on paper, and then there is the real world, and the two don't always match up.

Naturally the state has no way to account for all that other stuff, so using numbers and best available data makes a lot of sense. I just wish there was a way to better blend the two concepts a bit better. I'm not proud of it, but I have zero doubt that on my boat on the ocean that fewer coho would die if we could keep the first two fish and be done.

This whole concept is something that has weighed heavily on me since I started doing this for a job. I hate killing fish that should not be killed. I hate doing everything I can think of to ensure a quick and easy release but still watching fish float off. I understand this is a blood sport, and I understand even more that with my job I am naturally going to have a larger impact. I can look myself in the mirror just by doing the absolute best I can, but sometimes it's not enough and that sucks.

On more than a few occasions I've called trips early when we are just catching nothing but wild fish, or have made moves to fish elsewhere in hopes of finding some that are clipped. I've upset customers here and there but most people are understandable. I've done the same thing early season when the limit is 2 Salmon, only one can be a chinook. We'll get our limit of chinook early and then customers naturally want to try for coho. There are typically a few around at that time but not in any real target able numbers. I have put a stop to fishing many times in those scenarios where we try for coho and just keep catching chinook because IMO it's kinda bullshit to just keep harassing chinook because technically you could potentially catch a hatchery coho. Again most people are understanding but on occasion someone takes issue with it. I just tell em they are free to take it up with the owners of the company but that it's my decision and basically tough shit lol.

On the realistic side, I do understand that the state can only use the information available to them to set seasons and regulations, and as much as I wish there was a way to include real world stuff, it likely could result in even more limiting regulations/seasons for sport anglers so its quite a catch 22. I don't envy the people who have to set our seasons and regulations. It seems like a no win situation much of the time.