2023 Skagit/Sauk season is a go

Stonedfish said:
They must have forgotten......
SF
Click to expand...
My understanding is that the genesis of the bull trout issue stems from work done for USFWS by a private contractor. I don't even think it was a USFWS employee. That is the info that I got.
To that extent, staffing may be able to be blamed since they had to outsource the work.
 
_WW_ said:
If those agencies communicate as well with each other as they do with us I'm betting they don't have clue.
Click to expand...
They don't. If government agencies actually did communicate with each other, people would hate them even more.
 
charles sullivan said:
My understanding is that the genesis of the bull trout issue stems from work done for USFWS by a private contractor. I don't even think it was a USFWS employee. That is the info that I got.
To that extent, staffing may be able to be blamed since they had to outsource the work.
Click to expand...
Don't know about a private contractor, but I'm told USFWS concerns stems from the declining trend in BT spawning index counts. There is entertainment value in this. I've been to so many project meetings in my life where a gov't agency rep says, "I have concerns." But then can't articulate those concerns in a way that connects them to the proposed project action. I swear some time in the last couple decades colleges began handing out participation diplomas in lieu of earned college degrees. But I digress.

Of course BT indexes have declined. Major forage in the form of pink and chum runs have declined. It's like a classic predator-prey paired population curve where, with the applicable time lag, predator populations increase and decrease in response to changes in prey abundance. However, the major factor contributing to BT population increase was the harvest restriction imposed in the early 1990s. Apparently recreational angling can have adverse effects on a fish population. Anyway, we stopped killing BT, pinks and chum were abundant, BT pop. increased, then pink and chum became drastically less abundant, followed by a decline in BT spawning index counts. Jeeze Louseeze, who'da' thunk? Comes now USFWS with "concern." But not concerned enough to ask WDFW to prohibit BT harvest, just concern enough about the potential adverse impact of continuing a long-occuring CNR season for steelhead, where any BT caught must also be released even though at other times of the year they can be killed. Reality disconnect anyone? Here's the thing: NMFS ("Federal") proposing a federal action by renewing an RMP triggers an ESA consultation with USFWS. Anglers killing BT under WDFW ("state") does not trigger an ESA consultation, suggesting that federally speaking, that which is unseen is "no problem." FVCK!
 
Salmo_g said:
Don't know about a private contractor, but I'm told USFWS concerns stems from the declining trend in BT spawning index counts. There is entertainment value in this. I've been to so many project meetings in my life where a gov't agency rep says, "I have concerns." But then can't articulate those concerns in a way that connects them to the proposed project action. I swear some time in the last couple decades colleges began handing out participation diplomas in lieu of earned college degrees. But I digress.

Of course BT indexes have declined. Major forage in the form of pink and chum runs have declined. It's like a classic predator-prey paired population curve where, with the applicable time lag, predator populations increase and decrease in response to changes in prey abundance. However, the major factor contributing to BT population increase was the harvest restriction imposed in the early 1990s. Apparently recreational angling can have adverse effects on a fish population. Anyway, we stopped killing BT, pinks and chum were abundant, BT pop. increased, then pink and chum became drastically less abundant, followed by a decline in BT spawning index counts. Jeeze Louseeze, who'da' thunk? Comes now USFWS with "concern." But not concerned enough to ask WDFW to prohibit BT harvest, just concern enough about the potential adverse impact of continuing a long-occuring CNR season for steelhead, where any BT caught must also be released even though at other times of the year they can be killed. Reality disconnect anyone? Here's the thing: NMFS ("Federal") proposing a federal action by renewing an RMP triggers an ESA consultation with USFWS. Anglers killing BT under WDFW ("state") does not trigger an ESA consultation, suggesting that federally speaking, that which is unseen is "no problem." FVCK!
Click to expand...
Does the WDFW kill season trigger a SEPA or NEPA? Maybe @Smalma would know? I don't understand the permit pathway enough from the state side.

I will say that this is a big reason why listing a species is not terribly effective for improving anadromous fish numbers. If the feds don't comment on a kill season for a listed fish, they sure as hell aren't looking at a gravel mine expansion, or a similar impactful development. So, in the end the listings seem to only have any effect on actions where you will physically touch the fish. Since the major issues limiting fish numbers are habitat based, the listing does little to help the fish.

Project level permits are generally decided locally. The local jurisdictions don't look at listed species most of the time, from what I have seen. The state agencies don't even comment on most SEPA applications. When they do, the outcome is a comment that does not change the outcome or require mitigation. Even in the case of in-stream flows, ecology comments and actions are ineffective.

If we ever get to fish, we can discuss shoreline permits and orcas. We could also discuss bald eagles. I have seen bald eagles limit development more than steelhead or Spring kings, and they are not even listed. Shoot, I have seen heron habitat protected more than listed fish. The disconnect between listed species and project level actions is remarkable.
 
I didn't have time to write this when I commented last. I would like to apologize to WDFW and the co-managers. It would appear that they can indeed read a calendar, and realize that it's a lengthy process and decided to get the application in early. They did far more than what I expected them to and it should have worked.

Maybe we need a Bull Trout Defense League.
 
_WW_ said:
I didn't have time to write this when I commented last. I would like to apologize to WDFW and the co-managers. It would appear that they can indeed read a calendar, and realize that it's a lengthy process and decided to get the application in early. They did far more than what I expected them to and it should have worked.

Maybe we need a Bull Trout Defense League.
Click to expand...

Imagine the disappointment on a child's face when they catch their first bull trout under your watchful tutelage and realise they don't have horns. Then imagine the expression on their face when you explain, "you trusted me. Trust is not to be given lightly. You have now verified there are no horns on bull trout no matter how much you wanted them to have that cool feature. You bought my bullshit because it sounded cool. The world is full of people that will try to get you to buy bullshit cause you want it to be true. You have now learned a valuable lesson about bull trout and bullshit. You are ready to go forth into the world young one. Use what you have learned."
 
Dustin Chromers said:
Imagine the disappointment on a child's face when they catch their first bull trout under your watchful tutelage and realise they don't have horns. Then imagine the expression on their face when you explain, "you trusted me. Trust is not to be given lightly. You have now verified there are no horns on bull trout no matter how much you wanted them to have that cool feature. You bought my bullshit because it sounded cool. The world is full of people that will try to get you to buy bullshit cause you want it to be true. You have now learned a valuable lesson about bull trout and bullshit. You are ready to go forth into the world young one. Use what you have learned."
Click to expand...
You mean when you mess with the bull you don't get the horns?
 
charles sullivan said:
Does the WDFW kill season trigger a SEPA or NEPA? Maybe @Smalma would know? I don't understand the permit pathway enough from the state side.

I will say that this is a big reason why listing a species is not terribly effective for improving anadromous fish numbers. If the feds don't comment on a kill season for a listed fish, they sure as hell aren't looking at a gravel mine expansion, or a similar impactful development. So, in the end the listings seem to only have any effect on actions where you will physically touch the fish. Since the major issues limiting fish numbers are habitat based, the listing does little to help the fish.

Project level permits are generally decided locally. The local jurisdictions don't look at listed species most of the time, from what I have seen. The state agencies don't even comment on most SEPA applications. When they do, the outcome is a comment that does not change the outcome or require mitigation. Even in the case of in-stream flows, ecology comments and actions are ineffective.

If we ever get to fish, we can discuss shoreline permits and orcas. We could also discuss bald eagles. I have seen bald eagles limit development more than steelhead or Spring kings, and they are not even listed. Shoot, I have seen heron habitat protected more than listed fish. The disconnect between listed species and project level actions is remarkable.
Click to expand...
They must a "take" permit for any impacts on a listed species. In the case of the Skagit steelhead I believe it is likely with the co-managers apply and the tribal federal funding nexus it be a section 7 of the act. Salmo g likely could provide more details, it all gives me headache!

Curt
 
Even Steelhead Jesus can't save us from the .orgs The real byproduct of all their lawsuits is POWER. Far more impactful than money, the ability to influence policy at the state/federal level F's up the already difficult process of managing Steelhead and Salmon populations where multiple stakeholders have vested interests. So you get WDFW and the Tribes on the same page regarding allowable impact, all that's needed is approval from the Feds. But (at least in part) because of apprehension that they'll be sued NMFS drags their feet and Voila! No Skagit/Sauk Steelhead season. I'm sure the Native Fish Society and WSC leaders are sitting around a fire right now, sipping their Chardonnay and congratulating each other.
 
doublespey said:
Even Steelhead Jesus can't save us from the .orgs The real byproduct of all their lawsuits is POWER. Far more impactful than money, the ability to influence policy at the state/federal level F's up the already difficult process of managing Steelhead and Salmon populations where multiple stakeholders have vested interests. So you get WDFW and the Tribes on the same page regarding allowable impact, all that's needed is approval from the Feds. But (at least in part) because of apprehension that they'll be sued NMFS drags their feet and Voila! No Skagit/Sauk Steelhead season. I'm sure the Native Fish Society and WSC leaders are sitting around a fire right now, sipping their Chardonnay and congratulating each other.
Click to expand...

It seems the leadership of the orgs are anglers.
I’ve always wondered where they actually like to fish, especially for steelhead since they sure seem to like to sue or keep things closed or limit angling opportunities around here.
SF
 
Stonedfish said:
It seems the leadership of the orgs are anglers.
I’ve always wondered where they actually like to fish, especially for steelhead since they sure seem to like to sue or keep things closed or limit angling opportunities around here.
SF
Click to expand...

Those guys are a bunch of clave dudes that would rather virtue signal and talk gear, history, and figurative fish rather than actually fish. There's lots of stupid people in this world that will believe stuff cause it feels good or they think it makes them look cool. They like you to think they like to fish. Some maybe do but I bet a majority of them have yet to even see a steelhead in reel life let alone on the end of their line. It's high society activism shit with a little genuine concern thrown in there to seem legitimate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

From our Media Gallery

Screenshot_20221019-122449_Gallery.jpg
1000011763.jpg
IMG_20220612_153021.jpg
IMG_6619.jpeg
B06CommonLoonMoltingIntoBreeding0573.jpg
IMG_0824.jpeg
20220924_bird.jpg
IMG_1557.jpeg
20241122_070557.jpg
IMG_20230205_211607080.jpg
1747564959775.jpeg
IMG_6700.jpeg
Back
Top