2023 Skagit/Sauk season is a go

[charles sullivan]

As I said before, I blame them all. It doesn't take a college degree to look at the calendar and see when February 1, 2023 arrives. They know how long it takes for them to get their shit done - backtrack from 2/1/23 that amount of time and add a six month buffer because it always takes longer, and that should be the start date.

I can guaran-goddamntee-you that NOF won't be late...

I think Curt summed up the timeframe pretty well in an earlier post.
The dept is beholden to tribal agreement on this one too, so it will be on a tribal timeframe. I don't think NMFS is touching this without that.
I am frustrated but I really have a hard time finding fault with WDFW. It's easy to blame the messenger.

My post was actually more about what listing does and does not do. I think that the coastal stocks may get listed soon. Combined with a new commission, I can see the department not having the money allocated to have steelhead fishing at all over there.

I am still curious as to what other activities or actions have been curtailed, impacted or changed by the listing? I think that fishing may be the only thing.

 

[_WW_]

The dept is beholden to tribal agreement on this one too,

Exactly! They take their sweet time too. The only reason for this that I have been able to uncover is, "Because they can."
So....maybe start two years earlier and call em everyday about it. I'd do that for 42k a year.

 

[charles sullivan]

Kashf-
Let's go back a bit. The co-managers had a 5-year fisheries plan approved by the feds to conduct their fisheries with some clear guide lines for allowable impacts based on predicted run sizes with in-season monitoring of catches as well as escapements. With that information in hand the managers and feds can evaluate whether the fisheries allowed under the plan was successful in limited wild steelhead impacts to or below the desired levels (met the jeopardy criteria). The last year of that plan was 2022.

Here I'm making some assumptions, but I suspect that the feds in their evaluation of that new plan would want as complete data base from the fisheries operating under that 5 year -plan as possible. Given that the first year was a limited fishery and we did not fish in 2021 we only fished 3 full season the results of all 3 complete years (including 2022) would be of important for their consideration. Given the timing of the wild steelhead spawning in the Skagit/Sauk basin (active spawning continues into July -the latest I have seen steelhead on redds was the 28th of July). In a perfect world the earliest we could expect an escapement (a key piece of the 2022 run size which is essentially to estimate the exploitations of that year fisheries). In the real world the estimate of the previous spring/summer steelhead escapement isn't completed until well into the fall (often November or even early December).

With the feds asking for comments on December 23rd I doubt that they saw the draft 10-year plan from the co-managers until sometime in late November or early December. It would have nice to have that work completed several months earlier but the reality is that if it takes 6 months or more to go through the Federal review/adoption process will not be fishing in 2023. That State seems to have some optimism that the process will not take that long -we shall see.

Curt

I think that this post lays out the timeframe pretty well. Additionaly, those numbers from last year need to be agreed with by the tribes. There is no way in hell NMFS is approving a damned thing without that.
There is no way in hell WDFW is submitting it either.
So my point is this, this is the only change that listing a stock makes. This is it. Nothing else. NMFS does not look at Skagit Counties shoreline management code, or Whatcom etc. The do nothing on a project permit level. There is no change or influence excerted with regards to agriculture, forestry, development, diking districts etc. There does not seem to be a connection to grant money to fund mortality studies in the Puget Sound or for better monitoring. So, why does any group push for listing on the Coast? Why does anyone think that listing will effect any real change?
Does anyone know of any other thing that listing does other than restrict harvest, direct or by C&R? Anything?

 

[charles sullivan]

Exactly! They take their sweet time too. The only reason for this that I have been able to uncover is, "Because they can."
So....maybe start two years earlier and call em everyday about it. I'd do that for 42k a year.

They can't start earlier. They need the number of spawners and preseason run size estimates agreed upon. The can't do that before the fish are done.

 

[Josh]

The politics of that seem to be a bit rough to me. The department is poor at communicating for sure. I could see this sort of communication as being taken as pre-emptive shaming.

I think you make a great point that they are responsible for communicating when we can fish even when they are not the decision makers. They don't seem to be very polished at that.

That's legit. But I was more just spitting out the first example that came to mind. I'm sure someone could come up with something that both communicated the process and didn't get anyone's panties in a bunch.

Anyone know a good PR person who will work for 42K?

Sigh. Government work pays badly compared to private sector, doesn't it? It's a shame.

 

[charles sullivan]

That's legit. But I was more just spitting out the first example that came to mind. I'm sure someone could come up with something that both communicated the process and didn't get anyone's panties in a bunch.

Sigh. Government work pays badly compared to private sector, doesn't it? It's a shame.

Not all. The state generally does though. DFW and DNR seem pretty low for their requirements.
Generally, the pay is more the smaller the land mass covered at least fom the state level down.
i know one county department with 8 openings. It's about 20% unstaffed. Many of the jobs have been open a while. The reasons for this are many but the upshot is a general lack of candidates with the credentials needed for the jobs at the pay.

 

[Smalma]

Without a doubt WDFW has a significant communication problem that stems in at least part from the merger of the two agencies some 25 years ago. The new agency became a more centralized organization. At the time there were discussions about to continue to communicate with the public at the user level.

Currently it is likely that most of our interactions with agency employees is when we are contacted by various creel clerks. This is a structure that will often lead to frustrations from both sides. Those hard-working techs are at the lowest level of the agency employment ladder and are typically several levels removed from the decision makers. This makes it difficult for the techs to get the information (often complex) on how or why decisions are made or how are concerns (expressed to the techs) get to those decision makers.

Since Covid this communication problem has gotten worst with communications now relying on the "Zoom world". That format makes it nearly impossible for the average angler to have those valuable one on one discussions or those "informal in the hall discussions". I'm concern that the zoom approach will continue to be used to avoid those one-on-one discussions that can be difficult.

Curt

 

[RCF]

Fairly soon we will be talking with AI developed 'bodies' and thoughts. Zoom will be a great way to deploy this means. Once both parties use AI developed 'bodies' and thoughts - communication will not only be improved, it is be understandable...

 

[speedbird]

Fairly soon we will be talking with AI developed 'bodies' and thoughts. Zoom will be a great way to deploy this means. Once both parties use AI developed 'bodies' and thoughts - communication will not only be improved, it is be understandable...

Try getting tech support from any large software or hardware company and this “dream” can become a reality

 

[_WW_]

They can't start earlier. They need the number of spawners and preseason run size estimates agreed upon. The can't do that before the fish are done.

Apparently we are thinking of two different things in our discussion. I am specifically referring to formulating a ten year management plan and running it through the approval process.

And in case anyone from WDFW, the tribes, or NMFS happens to be reading this here's a quick heads up! February 1, 2034 is but a SHORT 11 years away. Put a sticky on your computer screen to get started 8 years from now.

 

[charles sullivan]

Apparently we are thinking of two different things in our discussion. I am specifically referring to formulating a ten year management plan and running it through the approval process.

And in case anyone from WDFW, the tribes, or NMFS happens to be reading this here's a quick heads up! February 1, 2034 is but a SHORT 11 years away. Put a sticky on your computer screen to get started 8 years from now.

No we are not thinking of anything different. The 10 yr plan can't be submitted without all of the data from the 5 years prior. That is in many ways, the heart of it all. What did the increased monitoring tell you about the 5 years that the plan was in place.
The feds are doing what they do.

 

[_WW_]

No we are not thinking of anything different. The 10 yr plan can't be submitted without all of the data from the 5 years prior. That is in many ways, the heart of it all. What did the increased monitoring tell you about the 5 years that the plan was in place.
The feds are doing what they do.

Charles, there was no data except estimated returns when the five year plan was approved as we had not been fishing. After the first full season we fished creel data became available.

What did the increased monitoring tell you about the 5 years that the plan was in place.

Answer: Compile a ten year plan.

If you want to excuse these guys that's your prerogative. It is not mine. Preliminary work on this should have been done by April 16, 2022. After the spawning estimate there is nothing else to gather for the plan to be proposed.

They have drug their feet. I know it, you know it, Curt knows it, Steve knows it, and so does every other Tom, Dick, and Harry.

The feds are doing what they do.

That my friend explains the vitriol many have towards today's governmental agencies. Accepting it without complaint will get us a lot more of it.

 

[Styskal]

Charles, there was no data except estimated returns when the five year plan was approved as we had not been fishing. After the first full season we fished creel data became available.

Answer: Compile a ten year plan.

If you want to excuse these guys that's your prerogative. It is not mine. Preliminary work on this should have been done by April 16, 2022. After the spawning estimate there is nothing else to gather for the plan to be proposed.

They have drug their feet. I know it, you know it, Curt knows it, Steve knows it, and so does every other Tom, Dick, and Harry.


That my friend explains the vitriol many have towards today's governmental agencies. Accepting it without complaint will get us a lot more of it.

The reality is we would not even have a catch & release season if anglers didn't fight for it. It's a tough pill to swallow that we have lost a month of C&R after it being green lighted. More hard core complaining is exactly what needs to happen. The real kick in the nuts is we pay these guys to half ass manage our fisheries. It's not a good time to be apathetic and buy into the bullshit.

 

[charles sullivan]

Charles, there was no data except estimated returns when the five year plan was approved as we had not been fishing. After the first full season we fished creel data became available.

Answer: Compile a ten year plan.

If you want to excuse these guys that's your prerogative. It is not mine. Preliminary work on this should have been done by April 16, 2022. After the spawning estimate there is nothing else to gather for the plan to be proposed.

They have drug their feet. I know it, you know it, Curt knows it, Steve knows it, and so does every other Tom, Dick, and Harry.


That my friend explains the vitriol many have towards today's governmental agencies. Accepting it without complaint will get us a lot more of it.

The reality is we would not even have a catch & release season if anglers didn't fight for it. It's a tough pill to swallow that we have lost a month of C&R after it being green lighted. More hard core complaining is exactly what needs to happen. The real kick in the nuts is we pay these guys to half ass manage our fisheries. It's not a good time to be apathetic and buy into the bullshit.

With the listing, NMFS now manages the fishery.

 

[speedbird]

Time for another "Occupy Skagit?"

 

[flybill]

Time for another "Occupy Skagit?"

I was thinking the same thing...

 

[ChrisC]

I was thinking the same thing...

Maybe having it nearby the NMFS office might have more impact.

 

[Pink Nighty]

NMFS Approval Of Skagit-Sauk Steelhead Plan Drags On -

There are enough wild steelhead forecasted to return to the Skagit and Sauk this winter to have opened a five-day-a-week season back on February 1, but a month into the fishery window there's still no sign of the federal OK that would allow that to proceed.

nwsportsmanmag.com

Well this is shittily predictable. "We just dont have the people or time to do the job." Must be nice to have that as an option in your profession, just not doing your job cuz it feels like too much. The ultimate dick kick was "when we are done, it's up to wdfw to figure out the season." Great, I'm sure theyll have it done in record time.

I'm about ready to just go fucking fishing.

 

[_WW_]

"NMFS staffers have also been chewing through a bunch of petitions filed last summer by the likes Native Fish Society, Wild Fish Conservancy and others."

Looks like the NGOs know how to read a calendar...

 

[Maltmstr]

Too 'resource constrained' to open a lawful fishery when the science warrants it? I guess that means too 'resource constrained' to bother a middle-aged man out for casting practice. He ain't bothering no one. occupy.