Lenice/Nunnally size of fish?

[Irafly]

Ha.
Ira fly I see you feel strongly about your position. It is unfortunate you come off as haughty and condescending. I do not appreciate being called ignorant for I am not. Stop being a bully. I have seen you do that many times on this site and other sites.

BC and washington state have a common border. And washington state has a few more million people than BC. I do not hear of or know anyone from BC that comes down to fish our lakes. But I know many of us that go to fish up in BCs lakes. I will maintain my my stance that WDFW should not be given a free pass on their poor lake management here. Same goes with how they manage the crabbing.

Don’t want to be called ignorant, then don’t act ignorant, pretty simple. I am no more a bully than you are with your uninformed statements about how the state manages the fisheries. There are members on this forum that work for the state and have worked for the state that attempt to calmly educate the uninformed who only use anecdotal information to inform their opinions. I don’t have the same constraints that they have in just coming right out and calling out the BS when I see it.

As for Canadians, I see you are attempting to distract from the point I made about the opportunities here in Washington. You didn’t deny that the State has great opportunities, you just attempted to distract in order to not concede the point. By the way, I do know Canadians who cross the border to fish here, but most of the time they stay home, because they do have great fishing there. I won’t deny that, but is it management alone that provides that fishing, or are there other factors as well? Heck you mentioned a huge one yourself, population. Complain all you want about Lenice, but look at the proximity of Lenice to the greater Seattle area. Now look at say Roche or Tunkwa. And that’s just population, which is huge enough to account for better fishing. Then look at the number of lakes, the different water chemistry…

 

[N. Metz]

Don’t want to be called ignorant, then don’t act ignorant, pretty simple. I am no more a bully than you are with your uninformed statements about how the state manages the fisheries. There are members on this forum that work for the state and have worked for the state that attempt to calmly educate the uninformed who only use anecdotal information to inform their opinions. I don’t have the same constraints that they have in just coming right out and calling out the BS when I see it.

As for Canadians, I see you are attempting to distract from the point I made about the opportunities here in Washington. You didn’t deny that the State has great opportunities, you just attempted to distract in order to not concede the point. By the way, I do know Canadians who cross the border to fish here, but most of the time they stay home, because they do have great fishing there. I won’t deny that, but is it management alone that provides that fishing, or are there other factors as well? Heck you m motioned a huge one yourself, population. Complain all you want about Lenice, but look at the proximity of Lenice to the greater Seattle area. Now look at say Roche or Tunkwa. And that’s just population, which is huge enough to account for better fishing. Then look at the number of lakes, the different water chemistry…

So his, “uninformed statements”, in your eyes, make him a bully? Who’s he bullying? He’s a bully of “the truth” as you see it?

Nobody said Washington didn’t have opportunities. All anybody’s said is they haven’t been maximized. That’s it man. That’s all that’s been said.

You can disagree with someone without calling them ignorant.

The fisheries biologist aren’t constrained by anything other than civility and politeness. You don’t seem to have those constraints.

 

[Irafly]

So his, “uninformed statements”, in your eyes, make him a bully? Who’s he bullying? He’s a bully of “the truth” as you see it?

Nobody said Washington didn’t have opportunities. All anybody’s said is they haven’t been maximized. That’s it man. That’s all that’s been said.

You can disagree with someone without calling them ignorant.

I can disagree without using the word ignorant, but that is where I have issue. I don’t consider ignorance to be a bad word. I openly admit that I am ignorant of many things, I embrace my ignorance. Others hide from and attempt to make excuses or they deflect from the truth. But go ahead and buckle down on the “mismanagement” low hanging fruit if that is easier for you to stomach. As you do though, I’m going to assume your willful ignorance of the multiple, multiple other factors that play into the change in the Fishery at Lenice.

 

[Matt B]

Acid rain, remember when that was the talk.

I wasn’t born yet, but I have read that it began in the 1950s when Midwest coal plants spewed sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides into the air, turning clouds--and rainfall--acidic. And then in 1970, the U.S. Congress imposed acid emission regulations through the Clean Air Act, strengthened two decades later in 1990. By the 2000s, sulfate and nitrate in precipitation had decreased by some 40 percent. So, some reasonable regulation resulted in benefits for our streams and fish and us!

 

[Irafly]

So his, “uninformed statements”, in your eyes, make him a bully? Who’s he bullying? He’s a bully of “the truth” as you see it?

Nobody said Washington didn’t have opportunities. All anybody’s said is they haven’t been maximized. That’s it man. That’s all that’s been said.

You can disagree with someone without calling them ignorant.

The fisheries biologist aren’t constrained by anything other than civility and politeness. You don’t seem to have those constraints.

As for bullying by denying the truth of a situation, that is a fairly common technique used by many people, it is sometimes referred to as gaslighting.

I used the opportunities in Washington only once someone else brought up Canada and compared it to all of Washington, not just to the management of Lenice, so yes people did clearly allude to the lack of quality fishing in Washington based on management.

 

[Irafly]

I wasn’t born yet, but I have read that it began in the 1950s when Midwest coal plants spewed sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides into the air, turning clouds--and rainfall--acidic. And then in 1970, the U.S. Congress imposed acid emission regulations through the Clean Air Act, strengthened two decades later in 1990. By the 2000s, sulfate and nitrate in precipitation had decreased by some 40 percent. So, some reasonable regulation resulted in benefits for our streams and fish and us!

This! I’ll hear arguments about how we don’t need to worry about being fearful of environmental issues, because all the things we’ve been told to fear in the past haven’t happened. Hmmm, I wonder why they haven’t happened!

 

[DimeBrite]

Chronic gaslighting has warmed our planet by 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

[Billy]

I'm thinking I need to attach a tracker to Billy's jeep...

I'll give you a hint. Several of the lakes I hit most have long given up on. Infact the donkey I caught a few days ago I gave up on that lake as well.

But I network with like minded anglers and I decided to give it a go after reports of trout. It was challenging and at times I thought was going to be fruitless. But such is how it often goes if your angling for a big fish. That's my jam.

 

[Irafly]

The fisheries biologist aren’t constrained by anything other than civility and politeness. You don’t seem to have those constraints.

Do you know this, or is this another example of your ignorance?

Is it civil and polite to completely ignore evidence and reason that is not solely a management issue as to why Lenice is no longer the fishery it once was?

 

[N. Metz]

Ira.

We can just disagree. I don't think there's any point in going back and forth with you.

 

[Tombraider]

Simmer down, seasons on the fly is on.

 

[Irafly]

Ira.

We can just disagree. I don't think there's any point in going back and forth with you.

Just give me an example of how exactly the state has mismanaged Lenice that hasn’t already been fully explained in this thread.

I can understand why you are reluctant to go back and forth with me when your arguments are starting to falter. I do find the “We should just agree to disagree, therefore we should stop the debate, but I need the last word.”, technique fascinating. I’m not man enough to let that form of argumentative manipulation work on me. I’m just too weak.

 

[N. Metz]

Just give me an example of how exactly the state has mismanaged Lenice that hasn’t already been fully explained in this thread.

I can understand why you are reluctant to go back and forth with me when your arguments are starting to falter. I do find the “We should just agree to disagree, therefore we should stop the debate, but I need the last word.”, technique fascinating. I’m not man enough to led that form of argumentative manipulation work on me. I’m just to weak.

Whatever gets you through the day Ira. If you need to "win" to be alright, you can win man.

 

[Irafly]

Whatever gets you through the day Ira. If you need to "win" to be alright, you can win man.

Seems your need to respond to me once again, proves your need as well.

I noticed that you didn’t have it in you to provide an argument that supports the lack of management by the state that hasn’t been already refuted by this thread. But you did have the energy to “not” want to argue with me anymore. Hmmm, I wonder why that is? Could it be that you have no such argument?

 

[Ronbow]

And we have 5 pages of response. Glad to see interest, discussion, and opinions on two of my favorite lakes. Looking forward to a few stepping out into the alley....
Now my take:
These are very young lakes and are seeing a very rapid evolution. They started with very fertile ground flooded with inlet and springs as the Columbia Basin Project charged the aquafer. By the early 60's the "new" lakes inherited all the prolific insect and aquatic like of the Basin. Add fingerlings and bang, huge trout. Lakes were managed as selective fishery, which then was no bait, barbless hooks, and limit was three fish over 12". The fingerlings made it right to 12"+ by the end of April opener. And it was not hard to release until you had three over 18". Happy campers. Yup, we ate them back then, and if you scaled them, not too bad. And didn't even need a boat because you could walk the shoreline and fish anywhere. We drove to Nunnally on the west end and camped there. Many fond memories.
Management changed a bit, with fewer fingerlings planted and wow, they got even bigger! And there unfortunately developed an organized poaching effort. Saw it personally, two folks with a stout branch and a gunny sack full with the trot line haul.
But then things started to change. Russian Olives moved in, as did the reeds and tall grasses as well as the thick milfoil like stuff. And the .... pumpkinseed sunfish. Water warmed, and there was less oxygen. More summer kill as the plant life absorbs sunlight and water gets warmer, and doesn't circulate as well. The dense shoreline and weed growth makes poisoning the lake relatively ineffective, and the WDFW has a limited staff and budget. The sunfish just out compete the trout for food, they eat the same chironomids, damsels and callibaetis.
So our game guys try various strategies, browns and tigers to eat the sunfish, planting larger but fewer rainbows. Then the salmon police did away with the browns and tigers. And WDFW is trying to figure out how to best meet the perceived needs of the masses. And here we are today. I think the strategy is a numbers game, WDFW likes folks to get into numbers, like measuring the opening day take with success being as close to 5 per angler on a stringer as possible. Sorry we mess that up by releasing all the Pine, Cottage, Green Lake clones.
Experiments with fingerlings today, and still trying to have folks get 20 takes, doesn't seem to work. But planting "legals" and letting them grow a bit does allow for big numbers, some of which are over 18".
And there are other lakes, see above, where fewer fish, either by planting fewer, or having a few survive the opening power bait onslaught can in fact gorge on the abundant aquatic life and turn into pigs. So pick your poisen. I started this thing because I heard some reports of "numerous fish over 20". Hey a guy can dream, but my reality on the water this year was a whole lot of action, and a few really worth talking about.
Have fun out there and stay safe.
Ronbow

 

[Blackdogfishing]

Seems your need to respond to me once again, proves your need as well.

I noticed that you didn’t have it in you to provide an argument that supports the lack of management by the state that hasn’t been already refuted by this thread. But you did have the energy to “not” want to argue with me anymore. Hmmm, I wonder why that is? Could it be that you have no such argument?

Irafly

Give it a break. I can think of a lot of other reasons he does not want to keep conversing with you.

You still are a bully.

 

[RCF]

" And there unfortunately developed an organized poaching effort. Saw it personally, two folks with a stout branch and a gunny sack full with the trot line haul. "

Unfortunately Lenice (along with a number of other lakes not too far away) have had a poaching issue for a long time. I too have seen it several times including once where 5 poachers were cooking a couple hundred+ fish in the parking lot. One of the reasons why I stopped going there...

 

[Billy]

And we have 5 pages of response. Glad to see interest, discussion, and opinions on two of my favorite lakes. Looking forward to a few stepping out into the alley....
Now my take:
These are very young lakes and are seeing a very rapid evolution. They started with very fertile ground flooded with inlet and springs as the Columbia Basin Project charged the aquafer. By the early 60's the "new" lakes inherited all the prolific insect and aquatic like of the Basin. Add fingerlings and bang, huge trout. Lakes were managed as selective fishery, which then was no bait, barbless hooks, and limit was three fish over 12". The fingerlings made it right to 12"+ by the end of April opener. And it was not hard to release until you had three over 18". Happy campers. Yup, we ate them back then, and if you scaled them, not too bad. And didn't even need a boat because you could walk the shoreline and fish anywhere. We drove to Nunnally on the west end and camped there. Many fond memories.
Management changed a bit, with fewer fingerlings planted and wow, they got even bigger! And there unfortunately developed an organized poaching effort. Saw it personally, two folks with a stout branch and a gunny sack full with the trot line haul.
But then things started to change. Russian Olives moved in, as did the reeds and tall grasses as well as the thick milfoil like stuff. And the .... pumpkinseed sunfish. Water warmed, and there was less oxygen. More summer kill as the plant life absorbs sunlight and water gets warmer, and doesn't circulate as well. The dense shoreline and weed growth makes poisoning the lake relatively ineffective, and the WDFW has a limited staff and budget. The sunfish just out compete the trout for food, they eat the same chironomids, damsels and callibaetis.
So our game guys try various strategies, browns and tigers to eat the sunfish, planting larger but fewer rainbows. Then the salmon police did away with the browns and tigers. And WDFW is trying to figure out how to best meet the perceived needs of the masses. And here we are today. I think the strategy is a numbers game, WDFW likes folks to get into numbers, like measuring the opening day take with success being as close to 5 per angler on a stringer as possible. Sorry we mess that up by releasing all the Pine, Cottage, Green Lake clones.
Experiments with fingerlings today, and still trying to have folks get 20 takes, doesn't seem to work. But planting "legals" and letting them grow a bit does allow for big numbers, some of which are over 18".
And there are other lakes, see above, where fewer fish, either by planting fewer, or having a few survive the opening power bait onslaught can in fact gorge on the abundant aquatic life and turn into pigs. So pick your poisen. I started this thing because I heard some reports of "numerous fish over 20". Hey a guy can dream, but my reality on the water this year was a whole lot of action, and a few really worth talking about.
Have fun out there and stay safe.
Ronbow

Great perspective @Ronbow. thanks for sharing

 

[Eastside]

Great perspective @Ronbow. thanks for sharing

Agree! Well stated perspective. I remember the early days fondly, especially Nunnally, but also have seen poaching first hand. Called it in one time right in my float tube in front of the group and they scooted out of there.

 

[troutpocket]

@Ronbow thanks for weighing in. Everything you wrote fits with the information I have researched and with the answers I have received in conversations with the regional bio’s over the last 15 years.