2010 - when we heard about the bear attack, we grew eyes in the back of head.
U.S. drafts plan to bring grizzly bears back to Washington’s North Cascades (WAPO)
- Thread starter kmudgn
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Get outta here with this data to support your argument!
Devil's Advocate: If the proposal were to transplant some bears to an area with higher ungulate numbers, would hunters be upset because the bears would probably take some deer and elk that the hunters might otherwise get a chance at?
How many guys hunt that area?
HuntScore: Deer Hunting in Washington's Pasayten - GMU 203
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Looks like around 300...
Yes. Most hunters want better management of predators in this state instead of the hands off approach we are seeing. Generally we feel our migratory ungulates are in total crisis and just keep taking hits with a game commission that doesn't seem to care about them. Washington is not a good state to big game hunt all in all and our moods reflect that.Get outta here with this data to support your argument!
Devil's Advocate: If the proposal were to transplant some bears to an area with higher ungulate numbers, would hunters be upset because the bears would probably take some deer and elk that the hunters might otherwise get a chance at?
I was able to look back as far as 2013. I see anywhere from 100 to 300 hunters and a success rate from 4 to 6% for deer.
Elk hunting and success is pretty much nonexistent because the numbers of elk is nonexistent.
Flymph
Life of the Party
If the Grizz reintroduction is successful, this could lead to the same for Elk, and Deer.
More...
Funny, for years after that nearly every time I met hikers near that spot on the trail I was asked "Did you see the bear?"
A couple of times I spotted a lone black bear either on or just off the trail and fortunately it was at a distance where it wasn't a total surprise for either of us so I could raise an ice axe or hiking poles over my head to look bigger, yell "HEY BEAR!", and the bear decided to yield. I am glad they weren't Grizzly encounters.
Over the years there have been deer and once a black bear spotted in our neighborhood before it became (much) less rural. The bear didn't really give me cause for concern as I had a few encounters with black bears while climbing and we; the bears and I both, managed to come out unscathed including a surprise sow & cub encounter. In the 1970s I was with a Mountaineers group climbing a rock peak in MRNP. We were on a well travelled trail and stopped where it makes a couple of switchbacks up and over an apartment house sized rock outcrop that had come down to rest from above eons ago. It was fairly close to the parking lot and we had paused at the northern base of the outcrop to adjust packs, tighten boot laces, etc. I had to pee so I walked around the northeast corner of the rock. As soon as I got "around the corner" out of sight of the group, a sow and cub suddenly appeared in front of me about 50 feet away; perhaps less. While still facing forward and without missing cadence I silently began stepping backwards at the same pace the way I came. I got back to the group and said "I just saw a bear." Nobody seemed to care or even take notice.
Funny, for years after that nearly every time I met hikers near that spot on the trail I was asked "Did you see the bear?"A couple of times I spotted a lone black bear either on or just off the trail and fortunately it was at a distance where it wasn't a total surprise for either of us so I could raise an ice axe or hiking poles over my head to look bigger, yell "HEY BEAR!", and the bear decided to yield. I am glad they weren't Grizzly encounters.
I remember sometime back in the 1970s or 80s I saw a local TV news report (I don't think I was dreaming) where tragically, a woman in suburban Gig Harbor was surprised by a black bear in her back yard. She climbed up on her garden shed roof for safety but the bear was able to get to her, pull her down, killed her, then ate her intestines. I have tried but failed to find any record of it. Any locals remember hearing about that?
If going to the mammal hatchery model, why not start with the ungulates?
Flymph
Life of the Party
If the numbers of Elk and Deer are as low as Billy has researched why is hunting still permitted?
Flymph
Life of the Party
Honestly, I am tired of repeating facts to some who will not listen. And, to the non-listeners, those are your rights and I respect them. I try to back up what I say with info from the folks who do the hard work and put in the time. Below is a return e-mail from someone who knows a lot more about this than anyone on this board. I would suggest you send him your questions and complaints. You will please note in bold print an answer to the most prominent question as to enough ecosystem to support the bears. I look at this from a different perspective and wonder why the system can't produce 10X that amount but that's another pipe dream.
We, us (me is part of us) are responsible for the demise of the Grizzly Bear. I feel a personal obligation to try and restore what was once the monarch of the woods who was at the top of the food chain. Honor the Great Bear! Or, as mossback puts it "Go Grizz"! There is plenty of research to back up the benefits of reintroduction, a quick search will reveal might suprise you.
NPS NCE Grizzly <nce_grizzly@nps.gov>
To:You
Wed 11/8/2023 10:44 AM
Hi Chuck,
Thanks for emailing. If it is of interest, there is an informational presentation available for viewing online:
You can download the EIS and submit your comments here: https://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=327&projectID=112008&documentID=132104
And you can review the proposed 10(j) rule and submit your comments here: https://www.regulations.gov/docket/FWS-R1-ES-2023-0074/document
To your direct question, recent modeling suggests that the ecosystem could support about 280 grizzly bears.
Thanks again for reaching out,
-Andrew LaValle, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service
We, us (me is part of us) are responsible for the demise of the Grizzly Bear. I feel a personal obligation to try and restore what was once the monarch of the woods who was at the top of the food chain. Honor the Great Bear! Or, as mossback puts it "Go Grizz"! There is plenty of research to back up the benefits of reintroduction, a quick search will reveal might suprise you.
NPS NCE Grizzly <nce_grizzly@nps.gov>
To:You
Wed 11/8/2023 10:44 AM
Hi Chuck,
Thanks for emailing. If it is of interest, there is an informational presentation available for viewing online:
You can download the EIS and submit your comments here: https://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=327&projectID=112008&documentID=132104
And you can review the proposed 10(j) rule and submit your comments here: https://www.regulations.gov/docket/FWS-R1-ES-2023-0074/document
To your direct question, recent modeling suggests that the ecosystem could support about 280 grizzly bears.
Thanks again for reaching out,
-Andrew LaValle, U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service
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Anonymous member 148
Guest
Humans are also animals, and top of the food chain now. Some things just can't go back to the way they were. Eliminating 99% of the population and living in teepees and long houses with 0 amenities of modern times just isn't going to happen. Sorry bears, you had your time. Luckily humans are nice enough to provide them with protection and sanctuary in their remaining habitat.
Dustin Chromers
Legend
So more hatcheries? I think it's a sad state to depend on hatcheries at all be it fin or fur. Maybe I'm missing what you are saying. But artificially bolstering any population has on general proven out to not be good in the long haul. I don't like put and take fisheries any not than what is essentially a put and take Hunt.
I don't seem to recall where anyone here proposed that...
Seems hyperbolic, and frankly just the sort of empty headed sky is falling stuff that doesn't amount to much.
A
Anonymous member 148
Guest
If I have to explain my point to you, I guess your unreachable
smc
Guppy Chow
There is a relatively healthy elk population in Skagit county, the Nooksack herd. https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/02021/wdfw02021.pdf They've migrated down into the valley and just love the huge blueberry farm on Cockerham Island. https://www.gohunt.com/content/news/elk-ravage-washington-farm-eating-100-000-lbs-of-berries
It's not much of a stretch to imagine the Griz following the elk herd, to the ultimate blueberry bear nirvana. Maybe this plan to bring the Griz back to the North Cascades is really just a clever ploy by Big Blueberry to get the bears to eat some of those pesky elk.
It's not much of a stretch to imagine the Griz following the elk herd, to the ultimate blueberry bear nirvana. Maybe this plan to bring the Griz back to the North Cascades is really just a clever ploy by Big Blueberry to get the bears to eat some of those pesky elk.
You keep bringing up the ungulate argument but it doesn’t really mean anything. Can you show that a population of 200 bears could not be supported by available food sources currently in the area citing historic data? Raw harvest data or observation and subjective anecdotes about the number of ungulates in an area is just not useful. Are ungulates in the area truly in trouble compared to historic population data or is it just more difficult to harvest them than it was in years past when humans actively removed most predators? I may be crazy but I imagine there is science behind this plan. I also imagine available food sources were considered in its development.
Also, hunters should have a say in how Washington’s wildlife is managed but the reality is less than 5% of WA residents hunt. 10+ times that many residents enjoy the outdoors for other purposes including hiking, wildlife viewing, etc. Ungulates and predators are a shared resource in this state and all interests should have a seat at the table. How would justify disagreeing with that?
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