Hook sizes

[Mike Cline]

I can think of a "compelling reason" for hook size standards: respect for customers.

I don't know what you mean by "interoperability and safety reasons" in relation to hook size standards. Could you please explain? Thanks in advance.

One thing that some hook manufacturers advertise is "wide gape". That is misleading and annoying. For example, if they say their size 14 hook is a wide gape, it's actually a larger size hook, because hook sizes are gape sizes. If that "wide gape" 14 has the gape of a 12, then it's a 12. Likely a short shank 12.

Industry standards are established to ensure interoperability between different manufacturer’s products when it is required for consistent and safe application of those products. When the AFFTA (American Fish Tackle Association) adopted the Fly Reel Seat standard it did it for good reason. Prior to the standard there was no guarantee that the reel you bought for your fly rod would actually fit as both rod and reel manufacturers could build a product with any size reel seat they wanted. Another example of both interoperability and safety is the simple electrical plug. No matter who manufactures the plug or receptacle it must need both configuration and dimensional standards. It they didn’t, they wouldn’t work together very well, and even if they did connect, they might be made in a way that was unsafe for the consumer. In the case of a fish hook, it is an independent product that does not require precise interoperability with any other product to function well or safely. Before we had hook eyes, tippets were successfully tied to the shank of the hook. Hook eyes improved ease of use, but no specific hook eye size or configuration was required for the hook to function.

As far as “respect for customers” as a rationale for an industry standard, I think it might be pretty difficult to dictate what the standard might be. I’ll challenge you to suggest a hook sizing standard that would satisfy the majority of consumers.

 

[Kfish]

Multiple hooks from three different packs (two different packs of #8, one of #10). Never saw the fish up close due to them straightening the hooks out, but a couple jumped and didn't seem remarkable. Only one or two of them would have earned the reel.

Probably bad luck, but it was enough to steer me away. Also, looking at my notes, they were the SS not the SC. SS are a lighter wire than the SC, so I'd go back and change/retract my previous statement but I can't find the post.

One should not use SS or SC hooks for hot coho when it's in the 1/0 and above.. maybe ok.

I never tried to substitute this brand for that brand based on size. I stick to what I normally use. When trying new hook brands I would buy a range of sizes and see what looks good when I get them in my hand.

 

[ABITNF]

cut the little tag off and the mustad boxes open pretty easily

The little grey tag, yes that's true. But you also have to cut along the side label and people like to see before they buy and so I have to break both those seals to open the box. Then people ask why it's been opened.

The old plastic envelopes allowed us to see the hook. Now you can't unless you crack it open. And I can't see how these are better for the environment. The paper helps I suppose but an acrylic plastic can't be good.

 

[Otter]

Industry standards are established to ensure interoperability between different manufacturer’s products when it is required for consistent and safe application of those products. When the AFFTA (American Fish Tackle Association) adopted the Fly Reel Seat standard it did it for good reason. Prior to the standard there was no guarantee that the reel you bought for your fly rod would actually fit as both rod and reel manufacturers could build a product with any size reel seat they wanted. Another example of both interoperability and safety is the simple electrical plug. No matter who manufactures the plug or receptacle it must need both configuration and dimensional standards. It they didn’t, they wouldn’t work together very well, and even if they did connect, they might be made in a way that was unsafe for the consumer. In the case of a fish hook, it is an independent product that does not require precise interoperability with any other product to function well or safely. Before we had hook eyes, tippets were successfully tied to the shank of the hook. Hook eyes improved ease of use, but no specific hook eye size or configuration was required for the hook to function.

As far as “respect for customers” as a rationale for an industry standard, I think it might be pretty difficult to dictate what the standard might be. I’ll challenge you to suggest a hook sizing standard that would satisfy the majority of consumers.

Thanks very much for this additional info, Mike. I appreciate you giving examples of standards, especially with electrical connectors. My old brain often needs to have examples.

I've been fishing for over 65 years. Until the last 15 or so years, all the hooks I bought had pretty well matching sizes among brands; at least I never noticed any variation. Mind you, back then, there were only a few hook companies here in Canada (maybe the same in the U.S.?); Mustad, Wright & McGill, and those cheaper hooks sold at gas stations or department stores, tagged with the store brand, or no name tag at all. Then Tiemco hooks became available, which also had compatible sizing to our North American hooks.

In the last 15 years or so, we've had so many new hook brands on our market, coming from Europe and Asia mainly, I guess. That's when I started seeing some hook sizes that differed widely from our usual brands.

Up until then, I never needed to use my hook gauge to check sizes. I have a hook/hackle gauge like Dave shows in his first post, and also one marked "Cliff Outdoors The Top Shelf." Both of their hook sizes are identical. Considering that, and the fact that hook sizes between makers that I used back in the day had matching sizes, I wonder if there actually is a hook sizing standard, somewhere?

The hooks that I've had bad size matching with, are a couple of the newer ones on the market. For example, I have some Gamakatzu L11S-3H #10. On my hook gauges, and also comparing to my older hooks, they are a #6. Luckily, I bought them in person, when we had a fly shop in town, so I could see they were about #6, which is the size I wanted. More recently, I bought some Gammy SL45 Bone Fish #10, and they match all my #10 references.

My biggest concern is with Hanak H450BL Jig Supreme hooks. They are a good two sizes larger than marked. Their #14's are actually #10's, their #12's are a #8, and their #10's are a large #6. I had a nasty surprise using tungsten bead nymphs tied on their #10's. Riding point up, this style of fly often penetrates up into the roof of a fish's mouth, or the upper lip. Some smaller trout got the hook point up into their eye from inside their mouth, and bled quite badly. I felt very bad, and won't be using those hooks again.

This is an example of why, in my previous post, I had mentioned that standard hook sizing can be a matter of respect for customers. Lots of folks don’t have a fly shop nearby, where they can see products. Those Hanaks were very expensive, and I had to order them in by mail, sight unseen. If Hanak had matched the sizing of the vast majority of the hooks on the market, or maybe listed the measurement between shank and point, I would have been able to purchase them with some confidence.

 

[Mike Cline]

@Otter. What you are really talking about is the marketing and packaging of hooks from a consumer perspective. To you the specific shape and dimensional size of the hook is important. Obviously some hook manufacturers have not marketed or packaged their hooks in a way that meets your needs. Again, the stated size of any given hook is merely a proportional relationship to a base model. If a sizing standard was imposed on the industry it would probably force a lot of manufacturers out of the market or raise prices because of the costs associated with changing all the tooling, packaging and marketing-NO BENEFIT TO THE CONSUMER.

How to Design a New Fishhook | Fly Tyer

Creating new hooks is about more than just sharpening and bending thin pieces of wire. And with all the hooks already on the market, why would you even

www.flytyer.com

When you talk to a fish hook manufacturer as I did several years ago, the idea of a hook sizing standard always comes up. But the usual answer is Why is it necessary? It isn’t.

I’ve been fly fishing and tying flies since I was 14 (1962). I‘ve seen, as you have, a lot of hooks come and go. I have my favorites and you have yours.

 

[jaredoconnor]

Tactical Fly Fisher did a video about hook sizes recently and have implemented a solution of their own. I don’t remember the details though, because I’ve just committed to the hooks that I know.

 

[Brian Miller]

As far as “respect for customers” as a rationale for an industry standard, I think it might be pretty difficult to dictate what the standard might be. I’ll challenge you to suggest a hook sizing standard that would satisfy the majority of consumers.

As @Otter stated, there was a standard here in North America (Mustad?). Tiemco & Daiichi hooks were better hooks for tying because they were sharper out of the box and the crushed barb left a lower profile to aid penetration. When they became available in the US they wisely adopted the North American standard.

Again, the stated size of any given hook is merely a proportional relationship to a base model. If a sizing standard was imposed on the industry it would probably force a lot of manufacturers out of the market or raise prices because of the costs associated with changing all the tooling, packaging and marketing-NO BENEFIT TO THE CONSUMER.

It was a smart marketing move for gaining market share in North America because all I needed as a tyer (CONSUMER) to select their hooks was a widely published and easy to understand compatibility chart to determine hook profile (shape) & shank length, and hook wire gauge (weight).

I've been fishing for over 65 years. Until the last 15 or so years, all the hooks I bought had pretty well matching sizes among brands; at least I never noticed any variation. Mind you, back then, there were only a few hook companies here in Canada (maybe the same in the U.S.?); Mustad, Wright & McGill, and those cheaper hooks sold at gas stations or department stores, tagged with the store brand, or no name tag at all. Then Tiemco hooks became available, which also had compatible sizing to our North American hooks.

There should be a gape (point to shank measurement) standard because of:
1. this!!! - I've had the same issue:

My biggest concern is with Hanak H450BL Jig Supreme hooks. They are a good two sizes larger than marked. Their #14's are actually #10's, their #12's are a #8, and their #10's are a large #6. I had a nasty surprise using tungsten bead nymphs tied on their #10's. Riding point up, this style of fly often penetrates up into the roof of a fish's mouth, or the upper lip. Some smaller trout got the hook point up into their eye from inside their mouth, and bled quite badly. I felt very bad, and won't be using those hooks again.

2. this:
WAC 220-300-160:
(36) "Whitefish gear rules" means terminal fishing gear is restricted to one single-point hook, maximum hook size three-sixteenths inch point to shank (hook size 14), and bait is allowed. All species: Release all fish except whitefish.
3. As @Dave Boyle stated in the OP, gape size helps me determine hackle barb length using the Griffin gauge in his photos that I've been using for 30 years.

Tactical Fly Fisher did a video about hook sizes recently and have implemented a solution of their own. I don’t remember the details though, because I’ve just committed to the hooks that I know.

4. This thread and the other hook size thread show hook compatibility charts that include gape are not currently published so the proportional aspect of hook gape between mfgs is irrelevant.

*adding https://flyhooks.org/ is a good start.

Just like the reason for the AFTMA reel seat standard, consumers may want to "go with the brand they know" so deviation from the standard gape size can reduce competition, reduce innovation, and increase cost to the consumer.

And even if there were charts that include gape size, it is one more data point on the chart making it harder to choose the right hook from a different mfg than a fly recipe suggests.

So fuss all you will about hook sizing, but in the last decade there has been tremendous innovation by many hook manufacturers, especially in the realm of barbless hooks. That never would have occurred if there had been some draconian hook sizing standard that said all #14 hooks had to have the same dimensions. Use whatever hooks in whatever size you need, but don’t complain that another manufacturer‘s comparable hook isn’t identical. If one really believes there should be a hook size standard I challenge them to make the interoperability or safety case for that standard and who should set that standard? — Mustad, Daiichi, Firehole, Core, Tiemco, Gamakatsu, Hanak, Ahrex, Fulling Mill, Partridge. Nothing ruins innovation more than unnecessary standards.

Innovate all you want with hook profile (shape), shank length(?), wire gauge, eye size... but I agree with @Dave Boyle and @Otter that there are good reasons benefitting fish and the consumer to adhere to a gape (point to shank measurement) standard.

 

[Otter]

My biggest concern is with Hanak H450BL Jig Supreme hooks. They are a good two sizes larger than marked. Their #14's are actually #10's, their #12's are a #8, and their #10's are a large #6. I had a nasty surprise using tungsten bead nymphs tied on their #10's. Riding point up, this style of fly often penetrates up into the roof of a fish's mouth, or the upper lip. Some smaller trout got the hook point up into their eye from inside their mouth, and bled quite badly. I felt very bad, and won't be using those hooks again.

Re-reading my words, I see that I left out a few. What I meant in that last sentence, is I won’t be using H450BL hooks in size 10, because they have the gape of a typical size 6; too big for my trout fishing. I still use their #12 and #14, because I am pleased with their quality.

 

[Mike Cline]

@Otter, I am going to take issue with two thoughts you posted above. 1) Mustad hook dimensions are NOT an industry technical standard. Mustad’s long existence in the fly hook market indeed gives their hooks a lot acceptance. I had 1000s of them in my 1st few decades of tying. But that said, a Mustad hook size is entirely of Mustad’s design and is not based on any industry technical standard for fly hook sizing. As with all hook manufacturers, Mustad categorizes the size of their hooks with the proportional sizing convention that has been around for a century of more. No other hook manufacturer is obliged to adhere to Mustad hook dimensions.

2) The statement that a Hanak H450BL #10 is really a #6 is misleading and implies Hanak is misleading its consumers. I suspect the Hanak H450BL #10 is both proportionally larger than the #12 and proportionally smaller than the #8. You may not like the hook because of its dimensions (there are a lot of hooks I don’t like), but it is misleading to say the hook is anything but what it says on the box without a qualifier. Your assertion would be much more accurate if it said something like: The Hanak H450BL #10 is sized more like a comparable #6 Mustad hook.

If you seriously think there should be a hook sizing standard you should start lobbying AFFTA to establish one. But again I would challenge you to definitively state what you think that standard should be.

 

[Northern]

And again, we don't need an arbitrary standard.
We just need actual dimensions so that the customer knows what they are getting.
I don't care what you name a hook "size" - length and gape determine which hook to use for what fly (along with a visual of the shape.)
If you know those dimensions and want to match an old size guage, you can measure your guage and buy the appropriate model from that manufacturer.

It's not forcing manufacturers to comply with an arbitrary standard and limit creativity - it's just asking them to state an actual, measurable, incontrovertible fact about their hooks.

THIS is ridiculous:

I mean seriously, when you're on the water and ask someone what "size" soft hackle they're using, what good is the answer "8" here??
The answer "12 by 5" lets you pick the closest match from your box regardless of the make and model of hook.
The fact that we're arguing about how to measure SIZE is insane.

Defend corporate freedom all you like, @Mike Cline, but it's a needlessly lazy and/or outright deceptive practice with an obvious and simple solution.

 

[Mike Cline]

Compliance FAQs: Packaging and Labeling in the US

This content last updated 11/15/2019.

www.nist.gov

@Northern, what you are advocating for is not a fly hook size standard, but a labeling/packaging standard so that the consumer knows what the actual dimensions are before purchase. Information like that is not that unusual in consumer products. Again, if serious about such a labeling/packaging requirement, I suggest lobbying AFFTA and individual manufacturers to get the ball rolling. Clearly you have argued benefits for the consumer, but should such a labeling/packaging requirement be imposed on the fly fishing industry, there will be costs of doing so passed on to the consumer. How much more would you be willing to pay for a package of 25 hooks—1%, 5%, 10%—that had the labeling you desire?

 

[Northern]

Compliance FAQs: Packaging and Labeling in the US

This content last updated 11/15/2019.

www.nist.gov

@Northern, what you are advocating for is not a fly hook size standard, but a labeling/packaging standard so that the consumer knows what the actual dimensions are before purchase. Information like that is not that unusual in consumer products. Again, if serious about such a labeling/packaging requirement, I suggest lobbying AFFTA and individual manufacturers to get the ball rolling. Clearly you have argued benefits for the consumer, but should such a labeling/packaging requirement be imposed on the fly fishing industry, there will be costs of doing so passed on to the consumer. How much more would you be willing to pay for a package of 25 hooks—1%, 5%, 10%—that had the labeling you desire?

Yes, I stated in no uncertain terms that it wasn't a standard. The discussion is about hook sizes.

And I call BS on the usual corporate oh-but-it-will-cost-you line. Packaging design gets changed all the time for marketing purposes, and printing "12×5" does not cost more than printing "size 10." They could even print both!
And unless they're making hooks by hand, I'm guessing they already know the dimensions in order to program the machinery...which probably doesn't take instructions like "a little bigger."

As far as lobbying AFTMA: I'm not suggesting it be mandatory. I'm suggesting that it might be to their advantage because folks, myself included, would be more likely to buy a new (and already expensive hook) if they know what actual size they will be getting. Reference @Jake's post about only buying Ahrex these days for this very reason.

 

[Mike Cline]

@Northern Two comments:

1. Re: Cost of change - Every time a company makes a change in its consumer products, that change COSTS $. New materials, labeling, labor, training, support, manpower, marketing, etc. associated with whatever change is made shows up as an EXPENSE on the income statement. Whether or not those costs are passed on to the consumer thru pricing is a business decision that can be based on a wide number of things—margin targets, expected ROI, changes in volume, etc. Ignoring the cost of change has put plenty of companies in the red. But whatever the change is, it costs a company $$. Fact of business life.
2. The idea that the fly hook market would be improved if the physical dimensions of the hook were available to the fly hook consumer, is interesting but disputable. My first question in that regard would be what % of fly hook consumers buy hooks based on physical dimensions versus model/size#. I own a lot of fly tying pattern books and watch/read a lot about fly patterns online. But, I don’t ever recall reading about a hook recommendation that said: The Blue Jackel should be tied on a 2” shanked hook with a 1/2” gape. Rather the hook recommendation is usually: The Blue Jackel is typically tied on a #1 or #1/0 standard saltwater hook.

It would seem to me that given the plethora of fly tying guidance out there in books, shows, and online by many prominent tyers spanning decades that recommend fly hooks based on the model/size, that getting fly tyers to embrace physical dimensions as the criteria for purchase might be be a stretch. For the fly hook manufacturer, is the case compelling enough to incur the resultant costs and probability of improving sales.

I looked at the Ahrex site and indeed they give shank and gape dimensions for each model/size hook in their arsenal. The SA220 is their standard saltwater hook. Its dimensions in 1/0 are 42.30 mm(says hook length but isn’t clear whether that entire length or shank length.) Gape is 14.35mm. Interesting to know but requires conversion to imperial measurement to make any sense of it. Metric measurements don’t immediately compute for most Americans.If I need a standard saltwater hook in 1/0 I really don’t care what the actual physical dimensions are. Maybe some discerning tyers do, but I doubt they make up but a tiny fraction of flyt hook consumers.

 

[Northern]

@Mike Cline
I feel like you're missing the entire point of this thread.
That is, that fly "sizes" are entirely meaningless these days, and how could that be fixed so that we know what we're buying?

So far you've offered up Change is Bad, don't fix it

 

[Mike Cline]

@Mike Cline
I feel like you're missing the entire point of this thread.
That is, that fly "sizes" are entirely meaningless these days, and how could that be fixed so that we know what we're buying?

So far you've offered up Change is Bad, don't fix it

Big assumption that it is broken. I don’t agree. No real compelling case has been made IMO that the current fly hook sizing situation is BROKEN. But, that said, I live in a town with 5 fly shops and in a region with at least 15 shops within a 100 mile radius. Regardless of brand, finding the hooks I want/need isn’t a challenge. I tie at least a dozen flies every day I am in town and not fishing. Most get donated to TU. I go through a lot of hooks. I did a quick survey of the various hook storage boxes (standard bead boxes with 14 compartments) I have: 4 for saltwater (mostly Gama, Ahrex and Umpqua in all models/sizes). Am trying to wind down the TMC, Dairichi, Dairiki hooks and don’t have many of them left. 1 Box for Firehole dry sizes, 2 boxes for Firehole nymphs (standard and caddis), 1 box for multiple models/brands/sizes of Klinkhammer hooks, 1 box for Firehole Predator series. A lot of Firehole jig hooks are still in their original boxes as I don’t tie with them much. 1 very large craft box with all the 811, 860 and 718 streamer hooks in all available sizes. I think I have a whole box dedicated to salmon style hooks but I don’t tie with them as much.

But you don’t need to make the case to me. I am happy with the status quo. It needs to be made to all the hook manufacturers if you are serious about the change you desire.

 

[Wayne Kohan]

@Mike Cline
I feel like you're missing the entire point of this thread.
That is, that fly "sizes" are entirely meaningless these days, and how could that be fixed so that we know what we're buying?

So far you've offered up Change is Bad, don't fix it

Agree 100% with you Northern. Mike is being difficult.

 

[Northern]

Big assumption that it is broken. I don’t agree. No real compelling case has been made IMO that the current fly hook sizing situation is BROKEN. But, that said, I live in a town with 5 fly shops and in a region with at least 15 shops within a 100 mile radius. Regardless of brand, finding the hooks I want/need isn’t a challenge. I tie at least a dozen flies every day I am in town and not fishing. Most get donated to TU. I go through a lot of hooks. I did a quick survey of the various hook storage boxes (standard bead boxes with 14 compartments) I have: 4 for saltwater (mostly Gama, Ahrex and Umpqua in all models/sizes). Am trying to wind down the TMC, Dairichi, Dairiki hooks and don’t have many of them left. 1 Box for Firehole dry sizes, 2 boxes for Firehole nymphs (standard and caddis), 1 box for multiple models/brands/sizes of Klinkhammer hooks, 1 box for Firehole Predator series. A lot of Firehole jig hooks are still in their original boxes as I don’t tie with them much. 1 very large craft box with all the 811, 860 and 718 streamer hooks in all available sizes. I think I have a whole box dedicated to salmon style hooks but I don’t tie with them as much.

But you don’t need to make the case to me. I am happy with the status quo. It needs to be made to all the hook manufacturers if you are serious about the change you desire.

I am astounded that anyone would expend this much time and thought to explain how much something doesn't matter because it's not a concern for you, personally.

Many forum members, however, don't have fly shops nearby, and don't already own every hook known to man, so for them the lack of coherence is frustrating. You telling them it's not an issue because you can just look at your personal collection doesn't really help anyone else.

Luckily, since you do have them all in one place, it sounds like you'd be the perfect person to photograph all the various hooks arranged on a sizing grid!

Now that would be helpful

 

[Mike Cline]

Not trying to difficult and indeed I am just one voice in this discussion who has a particular perspective on hook sizing. I do find the comment: “Many forum members, however, don't have fly shops nearby, and don't already own every hook known to man, so for them the lack of coherence is frustrating. You telling them it's not an issue because you can just look at your personal collection doesn't really help anyone else.” a bit insular. Given the fact that there are an estimated 3.8 million anglers who indulge in fly fishing, the small number of apparently frustrated forum members doesn’t seem like a compelling argument to promote the change you desire.

23 Fly Fishing Industry Statistics and Trends

Fly fishing is a type of fishing method that simulates the use of natural instincts to catch a fish. Artificial flies are placed at the end of a weighted line. These lures then land on

brandongaille.com

Based on fly tying materials revenues listed in this report, probably ~10% of those anglers (380,000) at some time tie their own flies. What % of tiers in the U.S. do you believe would agree with the position that fly hook sizing is a compelling issue that needs to change and manufacturers would improve their sales if the change desired is adopted?

Again, as has been clearly stated above, this is a customer service, marketing issue and not a technical standards issue. Consumers who have issues with a particular manufacturers products need to lobby those entities directly, as they are the only recourse to changing their products, marketing and labeling.

 

[_WW_]

In the case of a fish hook, it is an independent product that does not require precise interoperability with any other product to function well or safely.

With the advent of online shopping I think there absolutely needs to be some standards. I won't try any new hooks until I can see them in person which is hard to do when the nearest fly shop is 30 miles up the interstate. @Northern's idea of a ruler in the picture and description would help.

 

[Matt B]

@Northern’s idea makes a ton of sense to me. I made a poll to get a sense of within this community, if people would find labeling per her suggestion helpful, or not. https://pnwflyfishing.com/forum/index.php?threads/hook-size-dimension-labeling-poll.4888/