Hook sizes

[Dave Boyle]

A while back there was a thread on hooks and while I love Firehole 718s I agree their sizes were a bit on the large side. Today while waiting for a call I started sizing some hooks.

See the pics below. Man they are messed up, the hook sizes too The 618 sz 14 was a ten but onto Fulling Mill who I also like the 14 was a 12 and the Hanak 12 is a 10 WTF??? Finally the tried and trusted Diachi 1760 was an honest 14.

I am surprised that 3 of 4 hook sizes were out, the Firehole by 2, still a great hook, just not a classic 14. Reminds me of rod lines wts.

Dave

 

[Jacob Watrous]

One of the reasons I buy only Ahrex anymore is that they are the only company I’ve found that publishes the dimensions of every hook they make front and center on their website, and also publishes a hook equivalency comparison chart.

No more guesswork, and I want to support that kind of transparency and helpfulness in a company.

 

[SKYKO]

A while back there was a thread on hooks and while I love Firehole 718s I agree their sizes were a bit on the large side. Today while waiting for a call I started sizing some hooks.

See the pics below. Man they are messed up, the hook sizes too The 618 sz 14 was a ten but onto Fulling Mill who I also like the 14 was a 12 and the Hanak 12 is a 10 WTF??? Finally the tried and trusted Diachi 1760 was an honest 14.

I am surprised that 3 of 4 hook sizes were out, the Firehole by 2, still a great hook, just not a classic 14. Reminds me of rod lines wts.

DaveView attachment 62920View attachment 62921

View attachment 62919View attachment 62918

This x a million, hook sizes across brands and styles confuse the hell out of me.

 

[SculpinSwinger]

One of the reasons I buy only Ahrex anymore is that they are the only company I’ve found that publishes the dimensions of every hook they make front and center on their website, and also publishes a hook equivalency comparison chart.

No more guesswork, and I want to support that kind of transparency and helpfulness in a company.

View attachment 62926

And they are quality hooks. I have full confidence. The PR 351 BL - light wire barbless predator - stays sticky sharp after many fish, none have bent or broken. HR 418 Bomber is one of my favorites for wets and muddlers.

 

[Northern]

Yeah, I tried to start this, but no takers

Thread 'The Hook Size Thread' https://pnwflyfishing.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-hook-size-thread.3877/

 

[James St. Clair]

I agree, hook sizes are funky across brands. However, I have had my Griffin Hook and Hackle Guage (same one pictured) since 1992, so they haven't changed it for over 30 years. I think the Guage is measuring standard gape sizes on a standard hook. With many of the hooks you are measuring, the more common use of bulkier synthetic materials in the past decade (or more) coupled with the hooks being barbless called for hook manufacturers to produce a hook with larger gapes.

Perfect example, the last hook pictured (firehole 618 foam/nymph) says 2XL/2XG, so 2 times longer than a standard size 14, and 2 times larger gape. Which I would equate to a gape that you would normally find on a hook 2 sizes larger (griffin guage says size 10, so thats a perfect match to the description in my mind).

While super confusing, I agree, I think if you look at some of the abbreviations regarding the style of hook, you will find they aren't that far off from the size they are claiming. And if you know what you want to tie (especially for trout flies) the stated hook size doesn't matter too much, its more the size/length of materials that you are going to put on said hook.

 

[Jacob Watrous]

I agree, hook sizes are funky across brands. However, I have had my Griffin Hook and Hackle Guage (same one pictured) since 1992, so they haven't changed it for over 30 years. I think the Guage is measuring standard gape sizes on a standard hook. With many of the hooks you are measuring, the more common use of bulkier synthetic materials in the past decade (or more) coupled with the hooks being barbless called for hook manufacturers to produce a hook with larger gapes.

Perfect example, the last hook pictured (firehole 618 foam/nymph) says 2XL/2XG, so 2 times longer than a standard size 14, and 2 times larger gape. Which I would equate to a gape that you would normally find on a hook 2 sizes larger (griffin guage says size 10, so thats a perfect match to the description in my mind).

While super confusing, I agree, I think if you look at some of the abbreviations regarding the style of hook, you will find they aren't that far off from the size they are claiming. And if you know what you want to tie (especially for trout flies) the stated hook size doesn't matter too much, its more the size/length of materials that you are going to put on said hook.

Good points about knowing the hook for a given pattern. But, at what point is a 2x long 2x gap heavy wire #12 really just a #10 (or, in Firehole's case, sometimes an 8)? Also, each brand of hooks seems to have their own concept of what is standard, which is annoying to say the least.

Again, that's why I like Ahrex's willingness to publish the exact measurements of their hooks. I know what I'm getting even if I've never used the hook before. Just ran out of Tiemco 600SPs (3XH, 2XS, 3XW), and though I've never used them or seen them in person I know that the Ahrex SA382s I ordered are going to be great and the right size because I can see the dimensions on their website. Measured the Tiemcos, and...done.

 

[Jacob Watrous]

Yeah, I tried to start this, but no takers

Thread 'The Hook Size Thread' https://pnwflyfishing.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-hook-size-thread.3877/

I saw that, and thought it a good effort, but my poor memory and slow brain need something like overlapping images/overlay in order to process it. An image gallery doesn't work for me.

 

[Buzzy]

Yeah, I tried to start this, but no takers

Thread 'The Hook Size Thread' https://pnwflyfishing.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-hook-size-thread.3877/

Not sure how I missed your hook size thread.

@Dave Boyle - I hear you about hook sizes being all over the board; there might be a benefit to ordering a size 16 Firehole 718 and finding it really is a size 12 if you're out of size 12 hooks. Just kidding.

 

[Mike Cline]

Hook sizing is confusing, and more importantly can be frustrating if one does not understand the basis of it. Hook sizing is not based on any dimensional standard within the industry as there is no compelling market reason for a dimensional standard. Hook sizing is based on a long standing convention (at least a century) of proportional comparison between hook sizes of the same style/model of hook from a single manufacturer. Usually starting with a base size hook whose dimensions, shape and material are all of the manufacturers choosing, hooks smaller or larger are sized PROPORTIONALLY to the base model. Thus a #14 hook is proportionally smaller and a #10 hook is proportionally larger than that models #12 hook. The actual dimensions of that model line of hooks is entirely at the discretion of the manufacturer. There is a sound commercial reason there is no standard for a #14 hook (or any other size for that matter) as there is no compelling reason for one. Standards are established primarily for interoperability and safety reasons. Neither of those reasons have any relevance to hook sizes. The only relevant standards in the fly fishing industry are fly line weights (very loosely applied) and reel seat dimensions (interoperability).

So fuss all you will about hook sizing, but in the last decade there has been tremendous innovation by many hook manufacturers, especially in the realm of barbless hooks. That never would have occurred if there had been some draconian hook sizing standard that said all #14 hooks had to have the same dimensions. Use whatever hooks in whatever size you need, but don’t complain that another manufacturer‘s comparable hook isn’t identical. If one really believes there should be a hook size standard I challenge them to make the interoperability or safety case for that standard and who should set that standard? — Mustad, Daiichi, Firehole, Core, Tiemco, Gamakatsu, Hanak, Ahrex, Fulling Mill, Partridge. Nothing ruins innovation more than unnecessary standards.

 

[Stonedfish]

I don't tie much for freshwater any more, but the sizing that is most different to me on saltwater hooks are the Gamakatsu SC 15's.
I like the hooks, but check them out against other hooks of stated similar sizes. Not even close......There is my fuss.
SF

 

[Northern]

Perfect example, the last hook pictured (firehole 618 foam/nymph) says 2XL/2XG, so 2 times longer than a standard size 14, and 2 times larger gape. Which I would equate to a gape that you would normally find on a hook 2 sizes larger (griffin guage says size 10, so thats a perfect match to the description in my mind).

Oh, I love this!
From now on I'm just gonna say I'm a 3XG size 7

Hook sizing is confusing, and more importantly can be frustrating if one does not understand the basis of it. Hook sizing is not based on any dimensional standard within the industry as there is no compelling market reason for a dimensional standard. Hook sizing is based on a long standing convention (at least a century) of proportional comparison between hook sizes of the same style/model of hook from a single manufacturer. Usually starting with a base size hook whose dimensions, shape and material are all of the manufacturers choosing, hooks smaller or larger are sized PROPORTIONALLY to the base model. Thus a #14 hook is proportionally smaller and a #10 hook is proportionally larger than that models #12 hook. The actual dimensions of that model line of hooks is entirely at the discretion of the manufacturer. There is a sound commercial reason there is no standard for a #14 hook (or any other size for that matter) as there is no compelling reason for one. Standards are established primarily for interoperability and safety reasons. Neither of those reasons have any relevance to hook sizes. The only relevant standards in the fly fishing industry are fly line weights (very loosely applied) and reel seat dimensions (interoperability).

So fuss all you will about hook sizing, but in the last decade there has been tremendous innovation by many hook manufacturers, especially in the realm of barbless hooks. That never would have occurred if there had been some draconian hook sizing standard that said all #14 hooks had to have the same dimensions. Use whatever hooks in whatever size you need, but don’t complain that another manufacturer‘s comparable hook isn’t identical. If one really believes there should be a hook size standard I challenge them to make the interoperability or safety case for that standard and who should set that standard? — Mustad, Daiichi, Firehole, Core, Tiemco, Gamakatsu, Hanak, Ahrex, Fulling Mill, Partridge. Nothing ruins innovation more than unnecessary standards.

Tradition is overrated.

Of course, this story is analogous to women's vs men's pants sizes, and the solution is the same. We have standard units of measurement; i.e. inches, millimeters, etc.

Instead of offering arbitrary "sizes", just give length x gap actual measurements. E.g. 15 x 7mm
Everything else is defined by the description and pic of shape.

 

[Dave Boyle]

Hook sizing is confusing, and more importantly can be frustrating if one does not understand the basis of it. Hook sizing is not based on any dimensional standard within the industry as there is no compelling market reason for a dimensional standard. Hook sizing is based on a long standing convention (at least a century) of proportional comparison between hook sizes of the same style/model of hook from a single manufacturer. Usually starting with a base size hook whose dimensions, shape and material are all of the manufacturers choosing, hooks smaller or larger are sized PROPORTIONALLY to the base model. Thus a #14 hook is proportionally smaller and a #10 hook is proportionally larger than that models #12 hook. The actual dimensions of that model line of hooks is entirely at the discretion of the manufacturer. There is a sound commercial reason there is no standard for a #14 hook (or any other size for that matter) as there is no compelling reason for one. Standards are established primarily for interoperability and safety reasons. Neither of those reasons have any relevance to hook sizes. The only relevant standards in the fly fishing industry are fly line weights (very loosely applied) and reel seat dimensions (interoperability).

So fuss all you will about hook sizing, but in the last decade there has been tremendous innovation by many hook manufacturers, especially in the realm of barbless hooks. That never would have occurred if there had been some draconian hook sizing standard that said all #14 hooks had to have the same dimensions. Use whatever hooks in whatever size you need, but don’t complain that another manufacturer‘s comparable hook isn’t identical. If one really believes there should be a hook size standard I challenge them to make the interoperability or safety case for that standard and who should set that standard? — Mustad, Daiichi, Firehole, Core, Tiemco, Gamakatsu, Hanak, Ahrex, Fulling Mill, Partridge. Nothing ruins innovation more than unnecessary standards.

Great points Mike, and I'm not fussing, I love all of the hooks I noted regardless of their size. It's a forum, so simply pointing out the idiosyncracies of it all. When all of the sz16 Firehole 718s were bought out at Avid, I was very happy to get the 18s, they are a size out, possibly 1.5

But for fun I'll be a contrarian, and enjoy the irony of what is the point of most of us following a standard sizing nomenclature when there are not any standard sizes to follow? As you point out, manufacturers are not beholden to standards and yet they all use hook sizes from the standards to inform us...that is plain daft, but of course more informative than 'biggest, almost as big, somewhat big, big, a bit wee, really wee, etc.' or good for god forbid we go to grain weights

I guess the point of it all is if you cannot actually see the hooks you are buying or don't know about their true size, then beware, pretty much like for all fly tying stuff I buy other than buzzer wrap and beads. One big plug for all the local shops, yeah!

Dave

 

[Stonedfish]

They are a great SRC hook, though. In fact, if we didn't have coho and other fish, they might be perfect.

Side note: If a person ever wants to brag about straightening a hook on a fish, I’ve found the go-to setup is a hot coho and a Gamakatsu SC15.

What size hook and how big of coho?
Have caught a number of coho on them without any straightening issues myself. Maybe a bad batch?
Too bad they don't make the 2H version in smaller sizes than 3/0.
SF

 

[Jacob Watrous]

What size hook and how big of coho?
Have caught a number of coho on them without any straightening issues myself. Maybe a bad batch?
Too bad they don't make the 2H version in smaller sizes than 3/0.
SF

Multiple hooks from three different packs (two different packs of #8, one of #10). Never saw the fish up close due to them straightening the hooks out, but a couple jumped and didn't seem remarkable. Only one or two of them would have earned the reel.

Probably bad luck, but it was enough to steer me away. Also, looking at my notes, they were the SS not the SC. SS are a lighter wire than the SC, so I'd go back and change/retract my previous statement but I can't find the post.

 

[Otter]

There is a sound commercial reason there is no standard for a #14 hook (or any other size for that matter) as there is no compelling reason for one. Standards are established primarily for interoperability and safety reasons.

I can think of a "compelling reason" for hook size standards: respect for customers.

I don't know what you mean by "interoperability and safety reasons" in relation to hook size standards. Could you please explain? Thanks in advance.

One thing that some hook manufacturers advertise is "wide gape". That is misleading and annoying. For example, if they say their size 14 hook is a wide gape, it's actually a larger size hook, because hook sizes are gape sizes. If that "wide gape" 14 has the gape of a 12, then it's a 12. Likely a short shank 12.

 

[ABITNF]

Maybe look at it this way...a hook is either right or it's not. How many hook manufacturers are there or have there been that are no more?

Plenty. Flyhooks.org lists over 60.

Do we want hooks to be all the same? Not me. Hooks and their differences is worth celebrating and not something to be upset about. Should I care that I want a Mustad dry fly hook to be the same as a Tiemco or a Daiichi? Hell no. We have so many brands, bends, gaps, lengths and other differences available to us that it makes it a great time to be creative. I for one like the fact that we have all this choice. Keep on looking for the same things and life gets boring. Embrace all the choice is what I say.

 

[Northern]

Maybe look at it this way...a hook is either right or it's not. How many hook manufacturers are there or have there been that are no more?

Plenty. Flyhooks.org lists over 60.

Do we want hooks to be all the same? Not me. Hooks and their differences is worth celebrating and not something to be upset about. Should I care that I want a Mustad dry fly hook to be the same as a Tiemco or a Daiichi? Hell no. We have so many brands, bends, gaps, lengths and other differences available to us that it makes it a great time to be creative. I for one like the fact that we have all this choice. Keep on looking for the same things and life gets boring. Embrace all the choice is what I say.

Hear, hear! I love choice!
But how hard is it to put something for size reference in the photo??
Like, I dunno...a ruler?

 

[ABITNF]

flyhooks.org

You won't be liking the new Mustad boxes. You can't see the hook inside and they're a bitch to open.

 

[Norm Frechette]

cut the little tag off and the mustad boxes open pretty easily