ER Conservation combined with netting

[Matt Paluch]

Maybe you should try being more polite?

Maybe I am being polite. Maybe I've been to enough WDFW meetings to be able to say that nearly all communication they receive is full of anger and accusations. Nearly all of the comments also are factually incorrect. All I have done on this thread is post a little bit of advice. That advice doesn't come from a place of ignorance or inexperience, and you can take it or leave it. I was just making some suggestions.

 

[Shad]

Maybe I am being polite. Maybe I've been to enough WDFW meetings to be able to say that nearly all communication they receive is full of anger and accusations. Nearly all of the comments also are factually incorrect. All I have done on this thread is post a little bit of advice. That advice doesn't come from a place of ignorance or inexperience, and you can take it or leave it. I was just making some suggestions.

You obviously haven't been dealing with salmon fisheries (and you said as much). Region 6 management would have you gouging out your eyeballs and screaming in 2 meetings flat. Your politeness would disappear quicker than you can say "dead fish."

My advice: keep doing the stuff you do for your fisheries, avoid salmon politics like the plague, and let the people who've been screwed over by Region 6 management for decades handle our dealings. It sounds like your efforts have been at least somewhat fruitful, which I can promise you is infinitely more satisfaction than you would get working on salmon fisheries by being "polite."

Do you honestly believe we didn't try honey, like 50 times, before resorting to vinegar? The Salmon Mafia is real, and you don't wanna meet 'em.

 

[HauntedByWaters]

Maybe I am being polite. Maybe I've been to enough WDFW meetings to be able to say that nearly all communication they receive is full of anger and accusations. Nearly all of the comments also are factually incorrect. All I have done on this thread is post a little bit of advice. That advice doesn't come from a place of ignorance or inexperience, and you can take it or leave it. I was just making some suggestions.

I was just joking around with my last post. I get where you are coming from.

Globally salmon fisheries are worth an estimated $5 billion and generate around $500 million per year last I checked. Inland fisheries are worth the economy from guides, boat sales, and fishing shops and that is it. Obviously making money trumps all. This is why getting involved with salmon fisheries is nauseating.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

Maybe I am being polite. Maybe I've been to enough WDFW meetings to be able to say that nearly all communication they receive is full of anger and accusations. Nearly all of the comments also are factually incorrect. All I have done on this thread is post a little bit of advice. That advice doesn't come from a place of ignorance or inexperience, and you can take it or leave it. I was just making some suggestions.

With all due respect I think you are out of touch with what is happening on the coast and the powers in play. Again, I mean you no disrespect but I get the feeling you have had a little success getting some things going inland and expect those items to translate to this area and specifically the chehalis basin. I'm not sure what assumptions you feel I'm making but surely someone with a track record of effective communication would be more descriptive than making a condescending blanket statement without clarification. That is unless you just simply wish to be condescending.

 

[Matt Paluch]

Guys, I am well aware of the difficulties surrounding salmon and steelhead management. I am well aware of the various groups all trying to peel off a piece of the dwindling runs for themselves without working together to improve the runs so everyone could get at least a little more of what they want. I have witnessed angry groups lay into WDFW staff at meeting after meeting and in the comments of every social media post the department makes. If you think your anger will do anything other than getting WDFW staff to stop listening to you, you're no different than the gear guys who think the solution to everything is increasing hatchery production. I understand that you're frustrated. I gave you suggestions because I have had success at the local, state, and federal levels. I helped pass 2 bills through Congress that put $900 million every year towards conservation, and got unanimous bipartisan support from Washington's delegation on one of those bills (and all but one vote on the other).

Anger will not get you what you want. What could move the needle is presenting data that would support your arguments - look at the RCO economics reports for how much fishing brings in annually and put that next to the non-tribal net fishing industry in the state. Then present that to your local state representatives and senators. Put that in a news article, a letter to the editor, a presentation to a local chamber of commerce. Do that in a polite manner, and continue doing it until public perception is on your side. It may take longer than you want, but you may get a lot more of what you want using that method rather than bitching on social media and sending angry emails. I'm not getting involved in this process because I have way too much on my plate as it is, but I'm trying to help. If you don't like what I said, go ahead and keep trying the same thing over and over expecting different results.

 

[Billy]

Guys, I am well aware of the difficulties surrounding salmon and steelhead management. I am well aware of the various groups all trying to peel off a piece of the dwindling runs for themselves without working together to improve the runs so everyone could get at least a little more of what they want. I have witnessed angry groups lay into WDFW staff at meeting after meeting and in the comments of every social media post the department makes. If you think your anger will do anything other than getting WDFW staff to stop listening to you, you're no different than the gear guys who think the solution to everything is increasing hatchery production. I understand that you're frustrated. I gave you suggestions because I have had success at the local, state, and federal levels. I helped pass 2 bills through Congress that put $900 million every year towards conservation, and got unanimous bipartisan support from Washington's delegation on one of those bills (and all but one vote on the other).

Anger will not get you what you want. What could move the needle is presenting data that would support your arguments - look at the RCO economics reports for how much fishing brings in annually and put that next to the non-tribal net fishing industry in the state. Then present that to your local state representatives and senators. Put that in a news article, a letter to the editor, a presentation to a local chamber of commerce. Do that in a polite manner, and continue doing it until public perception is on your side. It may take longer than you want, but you may get a lot more of what you want using that method rather than bitching on social media and sending angry emails. I'm not getting involved in this process because I have way too much on my plate as it is, but I'm trying to help. If you don't like what I said, go ahead and keep trying the same thing over and over expecting different results.

I gotta disagree Matt. Respectfully I think it's clear they don't care about data points or public perception. I think they are a radicalized department. If the 25 year plan and all the rules and regulations they plan to put in place doesn't scare you it should...

If you listen to some of the commission on the zoom meetings, Lorna Smith and some others it's clear they couldn't figure out how to manage an ant farm much less our resources! They should be fired not negotiated with. It's truely infuriating...

 

[Dustin Chromers]

.

Guys, I am well aware of the difficulties surrounding salmon and steelhead management. I am well aware of the various groups all trying to peel off a piece of the dwindling runs for themselves without working together to improve the runs so everyone could get at least a little more of what they want. I have witnessed angry groups lay into WDFW staff at meeting after meeting and in the comments of every social media post the department makes. If you think your anger will do anything other than getting WDFW staff to stop listening to you, you're no different than the gear guys who think the solution to everything is increasing hatchery production. I understand that you're frustrated. I gave you suggestions because I have had success at the local, state, and federal levels. I helped pass 2 bills through Congress that put $900 million every year towards conservation, and got unanimous bipartisan support from Washington's delegation on one of those bills (and all but one vote on the other).

Anger will not get you what you want. What could move the needle is presenting data that would support your arguments - look at the RCO economics reports for how much fishing brings in annually and put that next to the non-tribal net fishing industry in the state. Then present that to your local state representatives and senators. Put that in a news article, a letter to the editor, a presentation to a local chamber of commerce. Do that in a polite manner, and continue doing it until public perception is on your side. It may take longer than you want, but you may get a lot more of what you want using that method rather than bitching on social media and sending angry emails. I'm not getting involved in this process because I have way too much on my plate as it is, but I'm trying to help. If you don't like what I said, go ahead and keep trying the same thing over and over expecting different results.

With all due respect I think you are way out of touch with the realities of the situation and have displayed this in the past as well. Don't feel bad about that. I don't have a clue what inland fisheries management is all about or the problems that are there. I certainly wouldn't know how to go about fixing them nor would I suggest solutions until I knew what has been tried. Don't let that stop you though. I'm really happy for you that you've had some success. What you are proposing we do over here has been done. You're not proposing anything new. This thread is about inequity and fake conservation by choosing to close certain fisheries while favoured fisheries over the same stocks that are far more destructive are allowed to take place. The data is all there. Furthermore, everybody with any awareness is completely apprised of the economics of sport versus commercial fishing as it relates to the local communities, even our chamber of commerce. No presentation to them or anyone else will change the systemic gross mismanagement and token measures masquerading as conservation the department is employing for optics only. Lastly, I'm not advocating to "get a bigger slice of the pie". If that's what you're getting out of this then sit down as it's frankly insulting. What I'm advocating for is no pie for anyone until the pie is of size that it is responsible to eat any. That goes for anyone with one caveat that we meet treaty rights obligations. I'm also advocating for a massive restructuring or a complete disbanding of the department as we know it. Cancer has been found and it's time to operate. I used to fear federal management in Washington as I felt WDFW could do a better job at a more local level. I now think the heavy and albeit ineffective hand of the federal level couldn't be any worse than what we got. I'm with Billy. You don't negotiate with crazy, you get rid of it.

 

[Matt Paluch]

.

With all due respect I think you are way out of touch with the realities of the situation and have displayed this in the past as well. Don't feel bad about that. I don't have a clue what inland fisheries management is all about or the problems that are there. I certainly wouldn't know how to go about fixing them nor would I suggest solutions until I knew what has been tried. Don't let that stop you though. I'm really happy for you that you've had some success. What you are proposing we do over here has been done. You're not proposing anything new. This thread is about inequity and fake conservation by choosing to close certain fisheries while favoured fisheries over the same stocks that are far more destructive are allowed to take place. The data is all there. Furthermore, everybody with any awareness is completely apprised of the economics of sport versus commercial fishing as it relates to the local communities, even our chamber of commerce. No presentation to them or anyone else will change the systemic gross mismanagement and token measures masquerading as conservation the department is employing for optics only. Lastly, I'm not advocating to "get a bigger slice of the pie". If that's what you're getting out of this then sit down as it's frankly insulting. What I'm advocating for is no pie for anyone until the pie is of size that it is responsible to eat any. That goes for anyone with one caveat that we meet treaty rights obligations. I'm also advocating for a massive restructuring or a complete disbanding of the department as we know it. Cancer has been found and it's time to operate. I used to fear federal management in Washington as I felt WDFW could do a better job at a more local level. I now think the heavy and albeit ineffective hand of the federal level couldn't be any worse than what we got. I'm with Billy. You don't negotiate with crazy, you get rid of it.

That's where the legislature comes in - the part of my comment that you ignored. If you've done your work with the public and the local governments - which I'm not sure is true, since the commercial guys definitely have their own support both on the commission level and at the local government level - you move up to the legislative level that would effectively bypass WDFW, the commission, and the governor IF you have used your public outreach effectively and can garner enough support. I think there's a good chance that you would get more than enough support with the state legislature if you put your efforts there. The department cannot act outside the law, so pass a law.

I'm struggling to understand where you are getting the impression that I think you should negotiate with the department. I said try to be polite. That serves a few purposes: 1) you don't look unhinged to the public 2) it prevents the department from dismissing your arguments out of hand.

Lastly, I was not saying you're trying to get a bigger slice of the pie. I was saying many of the groups involved are. I'm not attacking you. I'm offering a suggestion based off of experience working in this arena. I've done that, and now I'm moving on.

 

[Matt Paluch]

I gotta disagree Matt. Respectfully I think it's clear they don't care about data points or public perception. I think they are a radicalized department. If the 25 year plan and all the rules and regulations they plan to put in place doesn't scare you it should...

If you listen to some of the commission on the zoom meetings, Lorna Smith and some others it's clear they couldn't figure out how to manage an ant farm much less our resources! They should be fired not negotiated with. It's truely infuriating...

The second paragraph of the comment you replied to demonstrates that I was not advocating for negotiating with the commission. I gave a strategy to get the legislature involved so these sorts of things don't happen.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

That's where the legislature comes in - the part of my comment that you ignored. If you've done your work with the public and the local governments - which I'm not sure is true, since the commercial guys definitely have their own support both on the commission level and at the local government level - you move up to the legislative level that would effectively bypass WDFW, the commission, and the governor IF you have used your public outreach effectively and can garner enough support. I think there's a good chance that you would get more than enough support with the state legislature if you put your efforts there. The department cannot act outside the law, so pass a law.

I'm struggling to understand where you are getting the impression that I think you should negotiate with the department. I said try to be polite. That serves a few purposes: 1) you don't look unhinged to the public 2) it prevents the department from dismissing your arguments out of hand.

Lastly, I was not saying you're trying to get a bigger slice of the pie. I was saying many of the groups involved are. I'm not attacking you. I'm offering a suggestion based off of experience working in this arena. I've done that, and now I'm moving on.

Cool. Move on then.

 

[Matt Paluch]

Cool. Move on then.

Done. Have fun with your angry emails to WDFW staff. That's definitely never been tried before

 

[Dustin Chromers]

Done. Have fun with your angry emails to WDFW staff. That's definitely never been tried before

Will do. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Shad]

That's where the legislature comes in - the part of my comment that you ignored. If you've done your work with the public and the local governments - which I'm not sure is true, since the commercial guys definitely have their own support both on the commission level and at the local government level - you move up to the legislative level that would effectively bypass WDFW, the commission, and the governor IF you have used your public outreach effectively and can garner enough support. I think there's a good chance that you would get more than enough support with the state legislature if you put your efforts there. The department cannot act outside the law, so pass a law.

I'm struggling to understand where you are getting the impression that I think you should negotiate with the department. I said try to be polite. That serves a few purposes: 1) you don't look unhinged to the public 2) it prevents the department from dismissing your arguments out of hand.

Lastly, I was not saying you're trying to get a bigger slice of the pie. I was saying many of the groups involved are. I'm not attacking you. I'm offering a suggestion based off of experience working in this arena. I've done that, and now I'm moving on.

That's funny. He thinks the Legislature gives a flying shit about recreational salmon fishing....

Suffice it to say, we've tried it. I even had a senator communicating with me for a while, but he didn't get far with his colleagues if he shared anything I was telling him.

Legislators get campaign contributions from commercial interests (largely processors). That makes legislators essentially beholden to commercial interests. Welcome to America.

What you fail to understand is that you can get action on your local issues not because you are such a brilliant negotiator (sounds like you're pretty good), but because they aren't contentious or profit-driven, whereas the issues surrounding salmon are both. WDFW and the Commission are supposed to be our voice in the planning, and they fail us in that capacity entirely, largely because leadership is flooded with pro-commercial people. We don't elect these people, so we are left with no recourse but to shout at them, which somewhat to your point is not effective, but it feels better than silently taking it in the shorts.

In short, we're getting screwed around, we know it, and there's nothing we can do about it. That makes us frustrated and angry, but not irrational in our assertion we're being screwed.

 

[HauntedByWaters]

Done. Have fun with your angry emails to WDFW staff. That's definitely never been tried before

You are the one who got on your high horse about being polite and talking to legislates, like we didn’t already know that or try that. It blows me away that people like you poke your head out and say that stuff and then go defensive when you see the reaction. Being polite doesn’t give you a pass to avoid criticism. Angry people should not be ignored, neither should polite ones. Being polite is only a surface level social interaction, it has nothing to do with the root of the problem.

 

[Shad]

Done. Have fun with your angry emails to WDFW staff. That's definitely never been tried before

Weak exit, Dude. It is YOU who is sorely unaware of what has been tried before. Be glad your fisheries aren't disappearing to placate other user groups and leave us to process our frustrations with reality, as we are duly entitled.

 

[Flymph]

The Disappearing Pacific Salmon

Pacific Salmon Stocks are rapidly disappearing. This problem is not caused by the degradation of their river habitat, as much as by the severe food scarcity in the open ocean. The salmon are starving.

fisherycrisis.com

The above and other "Bigger Picture" issues seem far more important than wasting emotions on the WDFW.

 

[Matt Paluch]

That's funny. He thinks the Legislature gives a flying shit about recreational salmon fishing....

Suffice it to say, we've tried it. I even had a senator communicating with me for a while, but he didn't get far with his colleagues if he shared anything I was telling him.

Legislators get campaign contributions from commercial interests (largely processors). That makes legislators essentially beholden to commercial interests. Welcome to America.

What you fail to understand is that you can get action on your local issues not because you are such a brilliant negotiator (sounds like you're pretty good), but because they aren't contentious or profit-driven, whereas the issues surrounding salmon are both. WDFW and the Commission are supposed to be our voice in the planning, and they fail us in that capacity entirely, largely because leadership is flooded with pro-commercial people. We don't elect these people, so we are left with no recourse but to shout at them, which somewhat to your point is not effective, but it feels better than silently taking it in the shorts.

In short, we're getting screwed around, we know it, and there's nothing we can do about it. That makes us frustrated and angry, but not irrational in our assertion we're being screwed.

I know that there are many legislators that care about recreational salmon fishing, and I know even more who care about salmon stocks because of the whales. I also know that I offered advice and the three of you got your panties in a wad rather than just hearing it and moving on. So if this is how you want to talk to people who are on your side - I agree that there's nothing you can do about it. Clearly you think that you're so brilliant that you have absolutely tried everything and angry emails are the only way out of your situation. No wonder nothing gets done over there.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

.

I know that there are many legislators that care about recreational salmon fishing, and I know even more who care about salmon stocks because of the whales. I also know that I offered advice and the three of you got your panties in a wad rather than just hearing it and moving on. So if this is how you want to talk to people who are on your side - I agree that there's nothing you can do about it. Clearly you think that you're so brilliant that you have absolutely tried everything and angry emails are the only way out of your situation. No wonder nothing gets done over there.

Let the record show that my panties are not bunched and quite sheer. I don't send angry e mails resembling what I've posted here as I agree that it is not effective communication. While I do vent here I am capable of communicating strategically in a results driven fashion. I never insinuated I felt I was brilliant. I do have humility. With that and my anger I stay warm at night. Silk sheer panties and all.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

The Disappearing Pacific Salmon

Pacific Salmon Stocks are rapidly disappearing. This problem is not caused by the degradation of their river habitat, as much as by the severe food scarcity in the open ocean. The salmon are starving.

fisherycrisis.com

The above and other "Bigger Picture" issues seem far more important than wasting emotions on the WDFW.

I'll bet a hundred dollars that when salmon stocks collapse to the point of total shutdown WDFW blames climate change as the primary culprit.

 

[Flymph]

I'll bet a hundred dollars that when salmon stocks collapse to the point of total shutdown WDFW blames climate change as the primary culprit.

Let's hope so.