I think the ultimate goal is to transfer management to the states. Unfortunately some states won’t have the dollars to do so, which will likely lead to the sale and privatization of public lands.
SF
SF
Dismantling of the USFS
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Dustin Chromers
Legend
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A good start would be to extract the burned out cars and garbage that have been up the skok for decades. The place looks like Shelton's oversize garbage dump. Great looking hot tub on the mainline above browns creek if anybody is looking. Faux grey marble. Nice unit. We got lots of second hand roofing material, and for you Mopar guys there is a collection of burned out Durango's and other dodge product. It's disgusting to the point of offensive. You mean there's no room in a 300 million dollar budget to get that shit out of there? There's literally nothing else happening up there. And don't get me started on what should happen to the people that dump it. They should have their houses burned or at least their goods returned.
Dustin Chromers
Legend
So it would remain the same in my area. Zero management or maintenance.
If it was privatized, we likely wouldn’t have to worry about management or maintenance, as there likely won’t be access unless they sold passes.
SF
I'll take zero management or maintenance over closed.
You can always try to change the management or organize citizen clean up projects etc.
Closed is closed and rarely do we get a reverse uno back to public....
Dustin Chromers
Legend
I agree Billy. I and lots of folks volunteer for cleaning up the USFS ground in my area. I just honestly don't see what functions a once amazing agency are still performing up here.
Dustin Chromers
Legend
I'm not for privatising USFS lands. Nor am I got amalgamating into the park lands. What I want is an active and functioning boots on the ground forest service. I haven't seen that in decades. Why is it when budgets grow or get stressed the beaura racy gets funded and grows while the actual tip of the spear is lost?
No argument from me. I don’t want privatization either and I agree many of our governmental service organizations fail to function well or serve their intended purpose.
SF
Flymph
Life of the Party
Exactly! And why the State Bashers can't see that is beyond me!!!!
charles sullivan
Life of the Party
Mike Lee.
When you have Randy Newberg ( https://randynewberg.com/ ) opposed to a pro-gun rights senator I think that everyone should look and see why proior to forming an opinion on the matter.
Although the article is written in a sensationalist way. It seems to me that it probably has it right. Once these lands are sold into private hands, the public will never have a right to access them again.
When you have Randy Newberg ( https://randynewberg.com/ ) opposed to a pro-gun rights senator I think that everyone should look and see why proior to forming an opinion on the matter.
Although the article is written in a sensationalist way. It seems to me that it probably has it right. Once these lands are sold into private hands, the public will never have a right to access them again.
When the 2025 budget hits landed on the USFS last year, the vault toilets at Deschutes County lakes on USFS land stopped getting serviced, and than they were locked up = people using the woods for toilets. The camp host at one of my faves packed up and left because he was notified he would not be getting paid going forward.
Same thing happened at the 'tubes' parking area on Fall River. So this year Oregon designated the area, technically on USFS land, an Oregon state park requiring an annual pass or daily permit, and now the toilets are kept cleaned and serviced. Hopefully Oregon will pick up more slack due to these cuts.
A doctor does not treat a patient's parts independent of the body. When we view our country in it's entirety, USFS forests, rivers and lakes run over state lines across our nation, land that generates 150 million recreation visits a year, creates 20B in revenue for the economy, and supports 150,000 jobs supporting that recreation. Without over an arching and integrated management, a piecemeal approach captive to local politics = erosion of our national heritage, the land itself..
The dismantling of such entities in the current climate is never about savings or efficiencies, it is all about creating as much power and graft opportunities to political allies as possible.
Same thing happened at the 'tubes' parking area on Fall River. So this year Oregon designated the area, technically on USFS land, an Oregon state park requiring an annual pass or daily permit, and now the toilets are kept cleaned and serviced. Hopefully Oregon will pick up more slack due to these cuts.
A doctor does not treat a patient's parts independent of the body. When we view our country in it's entirety, USFS forests, rivers and lakes run over state lines across our nation, land that generates 150 million recreation visits a year, creates 20B in revenue for the economy, and supports 150,000 jobs supporting that recreation. Without over an arching and integrated management, a piecemeal approach captive to local politics = erosion of our national heritage, the land itself..
The dismantling of such entities in the current climate is never about savings or efficiencies, it is all about creating as much power and graft opportunities to political allies as possible.
When public lands and environmental regulatory control are relinquished to local control the easier it is for monied interests to push short-term perspectives on ownership and use.
For example; without the federal mandate for pollution control via the Clean Water Act municipalities and industry would rapidly revert to the prior (and far more economical) practice of dumping sewage and toxic substances into our waterways. Local control means externalized costs (such as diminished quality of use and downstream user impacts) are not considered.
Greed is an extremely dependable motivator that doesn't require conspiracy or collaboration...though they're quite helpful.
Unfortunately the current administration is hellbent on assisting in their quest for deregulation, privatization and degradation.
For example; without the federal mandate for pollution control via the Clean Water Act municipalities and industry would rapidly revert to the prior (and far more economical) practice of dumping sewage and toxic substances into our waterways. Local control means externalized costs (such as diminished quality of use and downstream user impacts) are not considered.
Greed is an extremely dependable motivator that doesn't require conspiracy or collaboration...though they're quite helpful.
Unfortunately the current administration is hellbent on assisting in their quest for deregulation, privatization and degradation.
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Dustin Chromers
Legend
The more I read the more I realise I'm in a less visited area of forest service country. We don't have toilets at all. And our campgrounds have been shut down a long time ago. They were run by a private contractor for a short time then shuttered. Maybe the proximity to the park has something to do with it being neglected and the fact it is lesser visited. The point being that the sentiment around me on this issue is essentially that the forest service may as well have been shut down long ago. We don't see them or any projects to speak of.
In the before time when the forest service was active here they were likely too beholden to the timber barons. They had public support to do so as this is timber country and jobs came with it. When public sentiment changed the USFS basically pulled out. No revenue for roads or anything else. Again this was more working forest than recreational and timber revenues kept the roads gravelled and travelled. Yes, there were camo grounds etc but they were either in the low country or dispersed. Currently there is little happening so as a matter of perspective little would change. Privatisation would negatively impact what we do have as an absentee landlord is preferable to an extractive gate happy one. I support a refocus of the agency. I do not support dismantling nor do I support dissemination to the state and or private. The national forest should be managed as it once was for balanced recreation/access and working forest. That doesn't mean I want the forest worked over.
I think you hit on something in your opening sentence. I was always very impressed with the campgrounds in the Deschutes, Umpqua, and Mackenzie National forests; always very clean, very well maintained, and usually well populated by folks who generally cared for and had a good outdoor ethic. Now, go off the beaten track on some of the old forest service roads, you can find all kinds of old deserted and occupied homeless camps, trash dumps, deserted vehicles, etc. Not sure if it's the Forest Service fault, they spend their maintenance budgets on populated campgrounds and maintaining hundreds (thousands?) of miles of hiking trails and more heavily used FS roads. Not sure there is the budget or personnel to police and maintain some of the not-so-heavily used FS roads.
That's my take on it anyway. Only 2 NF in New England, I felt fortunate to be able to explore those in Oregon.
Viewing this is as a grandparent with 6 grandkids, and the angst they will not have the opportunities to experience our wonderful outdoors as we could. That greed will prevail over sound environmental planning and quick profits will displace sound generational management, compounding the strain on our national treasure already use saturated by expanding population growth.
It is so easy to tear down and dismantle, and so hard to build and rebuild. And regardless of how one judges a monolithic bureaucracy such as the USFS, below the appointed heads that come and go with administrations are tens of thousands of hard working folks doing their best to steward our precious resources.
Unfortunately we are in a period where at the highest levels of government everything is viewed from a transactional perspective in which there are only two priorities, profit and power.
A lot has been made over the years about states vs federal authority, budget, etc. Well, the rubber is hitting the road and the next few years will reflect the priorities of the respective states. For some it will reflect the will of the people, for others the will of the wealthy and powerful.
It's fairly impossible to keep the politics out of something so important that is all about politics. These threads can be easily shut down when someone decides they've personally had enough so purposefully ramp up the rhetoric to do so, instead of letting viewpoints be expressed whether they agree with them or not. And therein lies the core problem in these times.
It is so easy to tear down and dismantle, and so hard to build and rebuild. And regardless of how one judges a monolithic bureaucracy such as the USFS, below the appointed heads that come and go with administrations are tens of thousands of hard working folks doing their best to steward our precious resources.
Unfortunately we are in a period where at the highest levels of government everything is viewed from a transactional perspective in which there are only two priorities, profit and power.
A lot has been made over the years about states vs federal authority, budget, etc. Well, the rubber is hitting the road and the next few years will reflect the priorities of the respective states. For some it will reflect the will of the people, for others the will of the wealthy and powerful.
It's fairly impossible to keep the politics out of something so important that is all about politics. These threads can be easily shut down when someone decides they've personally had enough so purposefully ramp up the rhetoric to do so, instead of letting viewpoints be expressed whether they agree with them or not. And therein lies the core problem in these times.
If you don't experience and understand the natural world l,or if your experiences and understand of it is limited to what you can see from a car, or a paved trail in a park ,you're probably not going to put up a fuss when the wild places are sold off. This means most of the population.
States can't afford to maintain them, this is a feature to these Project 2025 guyss, not a bug.
States can't afford to maintain them, this is a feature to these Project 2025 guyss, not a bug.
around.the.nw
Smolt
I have been involved in the off-road and overland industry for my entire working life. To help keep our trails open, many Jeep and other off-road clubs organize spring trail cleanups (removing downed trees, repairing or building new bridges, etc.) and also large cleanups like Pick Up A Mountain and Jeeps Go Topless on the coast. All because of the budget cuts and lack of money to hire personnel. And recently, over the past few years, there's one particular trail that is closed until July to reduce impact. Unfortunately, this trail is being abused because users (the bad apples) know there are no rangers to patrol the area and issue citations.
There are a few off-road industry organizations that have been formed to fight the government over land closures. I am guessing they are gearing up right now.
“ for others the will of the wealthy and powerful.” Agree but on both sides of the aisle just via different agendas—wealth thru corruption, wealth thru foreign manipulation or wealth thru legitimate and civilized enterprise and the power that goes with that wealth regardless of its origins.
In an activity-based organization, activities are funded in accordance with the priorities of the management. If your activity is a crappy idea, or is a good idea that isn't a management priority, it doesn't get funded. If it marginally meets a managment priority for whatever reason, it generally gets underfunded. And if it meets a management priority well, it gets full funding. Sometimes it gets more funding than requested.
In my experience, the negative ramifications of underfunded activities are in evidence long after the few dollars saved have been forgotten. Overfunding tends to produce "waste, fraud, and abuse", which is where you find the folks engaging in criminal fraud.
USFS and other land, resource management, and earth/planetary science agencies are not a priority of the current management of the country in Congress and the Executive Branch. That's why they've been cut, in some cases abolished. They don't camp, fish, hunt, farm, log, or worry about the weather.
IMHO it'll be a long time before services we have become accustomed are restored by anyone, private or public sector.
I don't know what I'll tell my grandkids.
In my experience, the negative ramifications of underfunded activities are in evidence long after the few dollars saved have been forgotten. Overfunding tends to produce "waste, fraud, and abuse", which is where you find the folks engaging in criminal fraud.
USFS and other land, resource management, and earth/planetary science agencies are not a priority of the current management of the country in Congress and the Executive Branch. That's why they've been cut, in some cases abolished. They don't camp, fish, hunt, farm, log, or worry about the weather.
IMHO it'll be a long time before services we have become accustomed are restored by anyone, private or public sector.
I don't know what I'll tell my grandkids.
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