Dismantling of the USFS

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Not wanting to get stoned for anything political, instead of linking the article directly here's a link to Hatch magazine where you can read the article on the USFS literally being dismantled.
The article is pretty bad.

Where were you guys in the 1990's when the Forest Service was gutted by almost a 40% reduction in staffing and professional resource managers fired and replaced by political appointees??

It was even worse in BLM were the professionals were replaced by than simply worked on political campaigns for the winning candidate. At BLM, that resulted in State Directors that had NO RESOURCE background period.

All that said.

The movement to Salt Lake City is fine. No Federal employee can move to DC and not have a substantial reduction in living standards. One of the problems for the Forest Service has been the hiring of DC employees without any background in the Forest Service or resource management. It showed.

The State Directors proposal will set up the Forest Service for consolidation with BLM in short order. Is this a good thing?? I don't know, the Forest Service is pretty dysfunctional these days and BLM is much better managed.

Remember Carter proposed consolidating the two agencies. This will make it much easier in the future.

Forest Service research was the leading research agency in the world on forestry issues. That is long gone. Once we decided that we will NOT be managing our National Forests, research into how to manage those public lands ceased to be a priority for every administration since the early 1990's.

That is a shame. The Forest Service and I were NOT a good match, but it was great working for a agency that I could find an expert to help with ANY issue dealing for resource management. That is not true today, and has not been for several decades.

I am not sure that transfer of public lands to the private ownership will ever happen. The Federal public lands are too valuable economically and ecologically to have the transfer occur.

There are too many corporations that depend on Federal lands.

I remember in the late 1990's where I was told to show up in Portland, by the Regional Forester, along with others that had responsibility for ski area management. There we sat through a two day session, where the ski industry representatives gave a presentation on Forest Service employees would implement the new fee and management requirements for ski area management on public lands!!!

Under the State Director setup you will see Governors in both blue and red states set policy and management standards based on political needs rather than professional resource management.

Oh well, at some point somebody with a "public interest" will notice and we, as a society, can move on from this mis-management of our public lands.

Really folks, the big issue is the burning down of our public lands over the last 30 years.

We have lost 20% of our Sequoia trees in just the last seven years. The northern spotted owl, along with the California and Mexican spotted owls are headed for extinction and a life in zoos. Then there are lots of species like Brewer's Spruce that will disappear in the next few decades.

People talk about sustainable forests, but the Rocky Mountain Region is burning down more trees than were are growing. My professional opinion is that the next Resource Planning Report by the Forest Service will show that the Pacific coast National Forests of Washington, Oregon, and California will also become unsustainble.

And the reburns in the next three decades, will insure that millions of acres of former forests will be converted to brush fields for thousands of years.

Future generations will judge us harshly for the destruction of our public lands through wildfires in just 30 plus years that will have ecological impacts for close to a thousand years.
 
First, I want to be clear, I don't want OUR lands privatized, sold or abuse!

Second, I like @Mike Cline worked for a very large company as a Business/Process/Systems Analyst for 22+ years. During that time I helped with streamlining, process improvement, outlined and implemented workforce and resource reduction and elimination. I worked on and supported organizational restructure, renaming, and elimination. NEVER was I greeted with glad tidings, less than 2% (other than senior management) ever wanted/embraced the idea of the change! Similar to the USFS and most all Federal Agencies they are out of date, bloated with staffing, behind the time with technology (now I guarantee some will already be getting angry and saying I don't know anything, because they don't want change!) and DON'T want to change, and many administrators have their own agenda about managing OUR lands and resources.

Example, "No Roads" policy, that's great until a fire breaks out, then they are slow, every show, to respond because they tore the last roads out. (This happened in my valley, in the Gifford Pinchot NF, it became a pissing match between Feds, State and BLM, and the fire grew because of it!) Now, after 10 years of the road being gated with no drive in access, unless you drive 25 miles around from the other side (then you run into the locked gate on our side, and have to drive back). The new Federal administration/ President listened to US and forest user groups that recreate in the National Forest, and OPENED the gate and lands behind. I know others will say just because of the gate doesn't mean you can't go, you can walk or ride a bike, I have done this to mile 7, then the road and terrain becomes steeper than 95% of the population would venture. So, how is it OUR lands if we can access it to enjoy?

So... I will say this I don't care if they change names, consolidate, modernize, reduce staffing, upgrade technology, change management practices, etc. The reason I have this view is because what we have had for the last 30+ years (and longer) hasn't been working for US in a long time!

I want access, I want renewable resources used as NEEDED to fund new and existing programs, I want OPEN meetings and all documents accessible to the public!

I have to step off my soap box now!

(PS... I want others to actually get involved in the process, understand the process, improve the process!)
 
The article is pretty bad.

Where were you guys in the 1990's when the Forest Service was gutted by almost a 40% reduction in staffing and professional resource managers fired and replaced by political appointees??

It was even worse in BLM were the professionals were replaced by than simply worked on political campaigns for the winning candidate. At BLM, that resulted in State Directors that had NO RESOURCE background period.

All that said.

The movement to Salt Lake City is fine. No Federal employee can move to DC and not have a substantial reduction in living standards. One of the problems for the Forest Service has been the hiring of DC employees without any background in the Forest Service or resource management. It showed.

The State Directors proposal will set up the Forest Service for consolidation with BLM in short order. Is this a good thing?? I don't know, the Forest Service is pretty dysfunctional these days and BLM is much better managed.

Remember Carter proposed consolidating the two agencies. This will make it much easier in the future.

Forest Service research was the leading research agency in the world on forestry issues. That is long gone. Once we decided that we will NOT be managing our National Forests, research into how to manage those public lands ceased to be a priority for every administration since the early 1990's.

That is a shame. The Forest Service and I were NOT a good match, but it was great working for a agency that I could find an expert to help with ANY issue dealing for resource management. That is not true today, and has not been for several decades.

I am not sure that transfer of public lands to the private ownership will ever happen. The Federal public lands are too valuable economically and ecologically to have the transfer occur.

There are too many corporations that depend on Federal lands.

I remember in the late 1990's where I was told to show up in Portland, by the Regional Forester, along with others that had responsibility for ski area management. There we sat through a two day session, where the ski industry representatives gave a presentation on Forest Service employees would implement the new fee and management requirements for ski area management on public lands!!!

Under the State Director setup you will see Governors in both blue and red states set policy and management standards based on political needs rather than professional resource management.

Oh well, at some point somebody with a "public interest" will notice and we, as a society, can move on from this mis-management of our public lands.

Really folks, the big issue is the burning down of our public lands over the last 30 years.

We have lost 20% of our Sequoia trees in just the last seven years. The northern spotted owl, along with the California and Mexican spotted owls are headed for extinction and a life in zoos. Then there are lots of species like Brewer's Spruce that will disappear in the next few decades.

People talk about sustainable forests, but the Rocky Mountain Region is burning down more trees than were are growing. My professional opinion is that the next Resource Planning Report by the Forest Service will show that the Pacific coast National Forests of Washington, Oregon, and California will also become unsustainble.

And the reburns in the next three decades, will insure that millions of acres of former forests will be converted to brush fields for thousands of years.

Future generations will judge us harshly for the destruction of our public lands through wildfires in just 30 plus years that will have ecological impacts for close to a thousand years.
lot to unpack there.
Research has identified the vital connection between old-growth stands and the well-being of the northern spotted owl, which had been identified as an “indicator species” for old-growth ecosystems.
Sustainability is paramount, and as climate change accelerates forest consumption by fire what is the master plan to fight those fires, prevent those fires, and is there a reforestation plan?
Utah wants to cut down more trees, one of it's justifications is trees absorb water that should be going to the Great Salt Lake, and recently decimated a large 100 years old grove to expedite a pipeline project.
Conversely, the Northwest Forest Plan adopted in 1994 covers 24.5 million acres in 17 national forests across Washington, Oregon, and Northern California, helping to conserve old-growth forests and restore watersheds across the Pacific Northwest. A plan which when proposed was ridiculed as a tree hugger fantasy by the logging companies opposed to it. And so those old growth trees still stand instead of having ended up just another logging profit point in the past.
The first step in all such is shining a bright light to illuminate discussions.
 
Alright… I’ll take a cast… Utah has a greater % of Federally managed lands than Washington… that being said, the article brings to light some legitimate issues but is way too full of artistic emotional activist language. Dude made me want to kick him in the nuts with “Destroying the Science”, makes me cringe when I hear that buzz phrase.
 
First, I want to be clear, I don't want OUR lands privatized, sold or abuse!

Second, I like @Mike Cline worked for a very large company as a Business/Process/Systems Analyst for 22+ years.
If we need to state CV's to justify viewpoints, that we 'get the big picture'.
Retired as the Director for Corporate Planning, Real Estate and Security for a high tech global consortium.
Integrated 35 global corporate acquisitions, managed 85 facilities in 22 countries with annual operating budgets that averaged 70M, capitol construction budgets up to 120M, had over 200 employees globally not counting contractors. Built data centers with DOD functions that required my having a deeply vetted high security clearance. Managed construction projects around the globe. Provided 24/7 security and response managed from three globally interconnected Security Operation Centers I built in Silicon Valley, Reston VA and Berlin.
And if I had been a garbageman it would not reduce the legitimacy of my views, or of any others.
 
echo echo echo...once those lands go private, the public's access is NEVER (extremely rarely) coming back....it NEVER (extremely rarely--i'm sure there's an outlier or two) works in that direction....echo echo echo

Keep arguing about the minutiae all you want, but the above is always going to hold true.

edit: political rant: you get what you vote for. mods feel free to delete this part, but I'm not going to.
 
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Research has identified the vital connection between old-growth stands and the well-being of the northern spotted owl, which had been identified as an “indicator species” for old-growth ecosystems.
That is not true.

Spotted owls have habitat requirements. They don't know what old-growth is or how it affects them.

Eastern Washington and northern California had large populations of reproducing spotted owls with high mortality. Western Oregon and Washington had poor reproduction and lower mortality. The ecosystems in eastern Washington and northern California were NOT old-growth. In the 1990's Chelan County had 100 spotted owls. As of five years ago, they had ONE. Losses are due to Barred Owls and fires.
Sustainability is paramount, and as climate change accelerates forest consumption by fire what is the master plan to fight those fires, prevent those fires, and is there a reforestation plan?
Not climate change, Bio-mass accumulation. We had a "epidemic of trees" in the 20th century on public lands.

No, reforestation plans and it is not even possible. The burned areas are that large. Here is the fire history of the last 20 years: https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=47.88782,-120.17475&z=9&b=mbt&a=fire_recent

The previous 20 years is just as bad.


Utah wants to cut down more trees, one of it's justifications is trees absorb water that should be going to the Great Salt Lake, and recently decimated a large 100 years old grove to expedite a pipeline project.
Technically, true, but practically meaningless. Lots of that going around.
Conversely, the Northwest Forest Plan adopted in 1994 covers 24.5 million acres in 17 national forests across Washington, Oregon, and Northern California, helping to conserve old-growth forests and restore watersheds across the Pacific Northwest. A plan which when proposed was ridiculed as a tree hugger fantasy by the logging companies opposed to it. And so those old growth trees still stand instead of having ended up just another logging profit point in the past.
Nope they are being burned down and lost to insect and disease.
 
In an activity-based organization, activities are funded in accordance with the priorities of the management. If your activity is a crappy idea, or is a good idea that isn't a management priority, it doesn't get funded. If it marginally meets a managment priority for whatever reason, it generally gets underfunded. And if it meets a management priority well, it gets full funding. Sometimes it gets more funding than requested.

In my experience, the negative ramifications of underfunded activities are in evidence long after the few dollars saved have been forgotten. Overfunding tends to produce "waste, fraud, and abuse", which is where you find the folks engaging in criminal fraud.

USFS and other land, resource management, and earth/planetary science agencies are not a priority of the current management of the country in Congress and the Executive Branch. That's why they've been cut, in some cases abolished. They don't camp, fish, hunt, farm, log, or worry about the weather.

IMHO it'll be a long time before services we have become accustomed are restored by anyone, private or public sector.

I don't know what I'll tell my grandkids.
I Hope everyone reads this post 3 or 4 times. I am not sure that I have seen such truth ever posted here as succinctly as this.
 
If we need to state CV's to justify viewpoints, that we 'get the big picture'.
Retired as the Director for Corporate Planning, Real Estate and Security for a high tech global consortium.
Integrated 35 global corporate acquisitions, managed 85 facilities in 22 countries with annual operating budgets that averaged 70M, capitol construction budgets up to 120M, had over 200 employees globally not counting contractors. Built data centers with DOD functions that required my having a deeply vetted high security clearance. Managed construction projects around the globe. Provided 24/7 security and response managed from three globally interconnected Security Operation Centers I built in Silicon Valley, Reston VA and Berlin.
And if I had been a garbageman it would not reduce the legitimacy of my views, or of any others.
Great credentials!

I guess I could have gone simple and said "Nobody want change, unless it's what they individually think is the right thing. "

Peace...
 
That is not true.

Spotted owls have habitat requirements. They don't know what old-growth is or how it affects them.

Eastern Washington and northern California had large populations of reproducing spotted owls with high mortality. Western Oregon and Washington had poor reproduction and lower mortality. The ecosystems in eastern Washington and northern California were NOT old-growth. In the 1990's Chelan County had 100 spotted owls. As of five years ago, they had ONE. Losses are due to Barred Owls and fires.

Not climate change, Bio-mass accumulation. We had a "epidemic of trees" in the 20th century on public lands.

No, reforestation plans and it is not even possible. The burned areas are that large. Here is the fire history of the last 20 years: https://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=47.88782,-120.17475&z=9&b=mbt&a=fire_recent

The previous 20 years is just as bad.



Technically, true, but practically meaningless. Lots of that going around.

Nope they are being burned down and lost to insect and disease.
@509 I was thinking about your posts on Sequoias and fires earlier this month when I attended a presentation by Dr. Chad Hanson. He said high intensity fires are necessary for Sequoia reproduction. Are you familiar with his work? If so, what do you think of it?

Here's some pictures of the screen from his presentation:
PXL_20260314_155555585.jpg
PXL_20260314_154934632.jpgPXL_20260314_154814132.jpgPXL_20260314_155154120.jpgPXL_20260314_155222800.jpg
 
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Been an interesting thread, as are some of the messages I've received.
Props to those who present their thoughts with coherency vs mere anger.
Thanks to the mods for letting this run, a lot to digest.
 
Last year’s “big bill” - with Senator Mike Lee’s enthusiastic support - had a number of sections designed to maximize resource extraction. Putting aside the cornucopia of mining and oil extraction sections, there were also a number of logging-friendly sections.

Just one example of a section pertaining to USFS: “For each of fiscal years 2026 through 2034, the Secretary shall sell timber annually on National Forest System land in a total quantity that is not less than 250,000,000 board-feet greater than the quantity of board-feet sold in the previous fiscal year.” Taken together with some related BLM language, the bill mandates an increase of at least 25% in logging of federal lands.

In April 2025, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the U.S. Forest Service (USFS) implemented sweeping changes to emergency logging regulations, designating roughly 112.6 million acres (about 59%) of National Forest System land as being in an "Emergency Situation". This emergency declaration authorizes expedited, "fast-track" logging projects to mitigate wildfire risk, pests, and disease, while drastically reducing environmental reviews and public oversight.

The announcement on USFS research reductions and closures just continues the narrative. The Grand Rapids facility that leads internationally recognized projects on the impact of climate change on peatlands and northern forests - closing. The Wisconsin lab focused on forestry products innovation - not closing.

We could attempt to debate the mountain of empirical evidence that on the balance resource extraction is negative for our ecosystems, but I will own my bias and just say I believe these changes will net-net be bad for our fisheries. I hope I’m wrong.
 
Multiple posters have invoked “climate change” as a driver of increased wildfire activity thus implying that any change to USFS organization and funding will ultimately result in more fires and their adverse result. They claim wildfires are increasing because of climate change. Although the earth’s climate is in constant flux and has been for eons, it is conveniently cited as the bogey man for efforts to impose a “green” agenda and demonize any effort to take a more reasonable approach to a changing climate. It prompted the following disconnected and admittedly a bit facetious thoughts.

One of the most often stated retorts in climate change discussions is: “The Science is Settled”. If such is the case, why is there such angst over closing research centers? What’s the logic for “Settled science” needing more research. Of course, science is never settled but it is a convenient argument.

A statement as one poster has made: “ Wildfire seasons lengthen due to Climate Change and are managed and fought by dwindling resources.”. As I dug into this I stumbled on to an interesting antidote where the National Interagency Fire Center (NIFC) was caught hiding actual fire history data that contradicted the current green agenda.

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/05...y-national-interagency-fire-center-nifc_fire/

The two interesting points about this was the obvious sustained drop in fire activity during the “Fire Suppression” regimes by US fire agencies and the obvious uptick in fire activity when those regimes began operating under “green, environmental goals” instead of resource protection. One must also deduce by looking at the actual date hidden by the NIFC was that manmade CO2 induced climate change was far worse in the 19th and early 20th century. Thankfully the USFS fixed that during most of the 20th century until the greens went off the rails.

1775563375548.png
 
echo echo echo...once those lands go private, the public's access is NEVER coming back....it NEVER works in that direction....echo echo echo

Keep arguing about the minutiae all you want, but the above is always going to hold true.

edit: political rant: you get what you vote for. mods feel free to delete this part, but I'm not going to.
Not necessarily factual or likely

 
Not necessarily factual or likely

that's why there is a bell curve to every single population. I'm sure there are one or two outliers.

But to your point, I probably should have avoided absolutes. One thing I do know is that we're losing far more than we're gaining (and that isn't close). At the rate we're going, there won't be much left for future generations to enjoy and that's a damn shame.
 
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echo echo echo...once those lands go private, the public's access is NEVER (extremely rarely) coming back....it NEVER (extremely rarely--i'm sure there's an outlier or two) works in that direction....echo echo echo

Keep arguing about the minutiae all you want, but the above is always going to hold true.

edit: political rant: you get what you vote for. mods feel free to delete this part, but I'm not going to.
1775570241219.png
 
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