Bad outing for FlyFish Dan

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DanielOcean said:
He means uninformed.
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Hmmm.... well. I have never seen a group of people more uninformed than fly fishing professionals. The knowledge base of many people on this forum is higher than most full-time guides. Shop staff including owners and industry representatives and independent business people. The big vocal voices you see. Yeah, you guys are more informed than them...

Also, this comment had absolutely nothing to do with Dan. Just to be clear I am not talking about him at all He is not one of the industry people I am talking about.

Speaking of rods... anyone who mentions swing weight as a measure of graphite rod performance is not informed about fly rods. Quadruply true for trout rods.

Most industry professionals can't cast their way out of a wet paper bag....

To the few who can? Kudos..
 
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While I haven’t been on the earth as long as some here, I know this…the more I know, the more I realize how little I know.

I have two fish in the 10 to 1 club…fish ten times heavier than the line weight. One a pacific blue marlin off Waianae HI, one a tarpon with spinning rod off Rio Tortugera Costa Rica. Both fish were caught on gear not suitable for the quarry… and both by accident (using gear for another specie).

The marlin died after three hours in stand-up gear, wrapping the leader around her tail and drowning… the fourth and last hour of the fight was basically moving forward slowly with the drag locked down, then reversing quickly while getting 10 wraps back on the reel, until her swim bladder began to fill and raise her to the surface.

The tarpon was caught on a white bucktail jig while fishing for snook off a river mouth…I happened to see porpoising tarpon chasing bait and I instinctively cast in front of them…hooked a monster that turned the 13’ whaler I was on around in circles and we chased the fish multiple times with the boat…it took way to long to bring the fish to the boat…she almost didn’t survive (actually I don’t know if she did) and took a long time to revive.

I enjoy fishing for fish on lighter tackle…I enjoy the challenge. I also want fish to have the best chance to survive after fighting and landing…these two endeavors are usually not compatible.

It’s one thing to hook unexpectedly an unusually large fish while targeting another class of fish, and another to purposely bring a knife to a gunfight…
 
Brute said:
While I haven’t been on the earth as long as some here, I know this…the more I know, the more I realize how little I know.

I have two fish in the 10 to 1 club…fish ten times heavier than the line weight. One a pacific blue marlin off Waianae HI, one a tarpon with spinning rod off Rio Tortugera Costa Rica. Both fish were caught on gear not suitable for the quarry… and both by accident (using gear for another specie).

The marlin died after three hours in stand-up gear, wrapping the leader around her tail and drowning… the fourth and last hour of the fight was basically moving forward slowly with the drag locked down, then reversing quickly while getting 10 wraps back on the reel, until her swim bladder began to fill and raise her to the surface.

The tarpon was caught on a white bucktail jig while fishing for snook off a river mouth…I happened to see porpoising tarpon chasing bait and I instinctively cast in front of them…hooked a monster that turned the 13’ whaler I was on around in circles and we chased the fish multiple times with the boat…it took way to long to bring the fish to the boat…she almost didn’t survive (actually I don’t know if she did) and took a long time to revive.

I enjoy fishing for fish on lighter tackle…I enjoy the challenge. I also want fish to have the best chance to survive after fighting and landing…these two endeavors are usually not compatible.

It’s one thing to hook unexpectedly an unusually large fish while targeting another class of fish, and another to purposely bring a knife to a gunfight…
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Been in that exact scenario with a marlin.... it sucked a lot
 
Rob Allen said:
I'll just say this.. if you hook a steelhead your rod should be sufficient to move the fish at will except when the fish is running.. if you bend your rod to the cork and the fish does not move your rod is too light.. and it doesn't matter what kind of current the fish is in
. Steelhead fly fishing needs a little more bass masters a little less slack line..
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Rob,

I'd like to explore your opinion just a bit more here. Specifically this part, ". . . your rod should be sufficient to move the fish at will except when the fish is running." Why do you think this? It looks like a control issue, but not being able to control a fish is pretty common in my experience with trout and steelhead fishing in the early stage of playing a fish beginning just after setting the hook. Once the runs are over, I have been able to move a good trout, but the darn thing resists moving toward my net, which is where I want to move it to. With a heavier rod, I could try to have it my way and move the fish toward my landing net, but absent a heavier leader tippet and heavier gauge hook wire, the result would likely be a broken leader, hook pull out, or hook breakage. My point is that part of the time spent playing a fish, control and the ability to move it at will just isn't one of the choices on the menu.

Your statement got me to thinking about the largest steelhead I ever caught, a calculated 26+ pounds. I was fishing with a Sage 9140-4, pretty much the gold standard of steelhead Spey rods at the time. And it's certainly a more powerful rod than my old 8 and 9 weight single hand rods that I used over the years. My fly made a traditional swing and stopped like it had snagged a rock. In fact that's what I thought had happened until I sensed a slight movement that rocks don't make. I tightened up and bent the rod to the corks, held that pose, and that fish did not move one inch for 20 minutes. I could not move it. I questioned whether I had actually sensed life on the end of my line because that fish simply did not move. So obviously I could not "move the fish at will." At the 20 minute mark on my watch, the fish slowly swam upstream and took a position downstream of a small boulder. I still could not move that fish at will. At the 25 minute mark the fish was tired, and I gradually led it toward shore where it rolled to one side, and I was able to land it.

I have a couple 10 weight Spey rods, but they aren't really measurably significantly more powerful than the old 9140-4. So what should I have done? Please don't say, "Fish a Burkheimer." I don't even know if Burkies existed then anyway. I think your notion that we need to be able to move the fish at will is flawed. There is a point where simply pulling harder means you're going to end up with a broken leader, a straightened hook, or just a hook pullout. Since we like to catch fish, I don't think pulling beyond the limits of our tackle is a good choice. Or a necessary one.

Unless, of course, we're fishing in a condition of warm water. Most of us have heard of lactic acid build up, and that can be fatal to fish. But the water temperatures in the fall, winter, and spring are cool enough that dangerous lactic acid build up doesn't occur. So physiologically it just isn't necessary that we be able to ". . . move the fish at will." The fish can survive being played by both an expert and relative novice angler when the water temperature is cool. Fish handling, of course, can be another matter altogether. But here we're talking about having a rod suitable for the task. And that is why in threads like these, from time to time I mention that a rod isn't even necessary to the act of playing a fish. Of course a suitable rod makes the task far easier, but I'm talking about necessity, and what it takes to land a fish in a condition to be released alive and stay alive. And that is terminal tackle. And that usually means leader material that you can pull on hard enough to tire out the fish. I could add, "in a reasonable amount of time," but then that starts another whole argument about how long one should play a fish. I'll save that for another time.
 
Salmo_g said:
Rob,

I'd like to explore your opinion just a bit more here. Specifically this part, ". . . your rod should be sufficient to move the fish at will except when the fish is running." Why do you think this? It looks like a control issue, but not being able to control a fish is pretty common in my experience with trout and steelhead fishing in the early stage of playing a fish beginning just after setting the hook. Once the runs are over, I have been able to move a good trout, but the darn thing resists moving toward my net, which is where I want to move it to. With a heavier rod, I could try to have it my way and move the fish toward my landing net, but absent a heavier leader tippet and heavier gauge hook wire, the result would likely be a broken leader, hook pull out, or hook breakage. My point is that part of the time spent playing a fish, control and the ability to move it at will just isn't one of the choices on the menu.

Your statement got me to thinking about the largest steelhead I ever caught, a calculated 26+ pounds. I was fishing with a Sage 9140-4, pretty much the gold standard of steelhead Spey rods at the time. And it's certainly a more powerful rod than my old 8 and 9 weight single hand rods that I used over the years. My fly made a traditional swing and stopped like it had snagged a rock. In fact that's what I thought had happened until I sensed a slight movement that rocks don't make. I tightened up and bent the rod to the corks, held that pose, and that fish did not move one inch for 20 minutes. I could not move it. I questioned whether I had actually sensed life on the end of my line because that fish simply did not move. So obviously I could not "move the fish at will." At the 20 minute mark on my watch, the fish slowly swam upstream and took a position downstream of a small boulder. I still could not move that fish at will. At the 25 minute mark the fish was tired, and I gradually led it toward shore where it rolled to one side, and I was able to land it.

I have a couple 10 weight Spey rods, but they aren't really measurably significantly more powerful than the old 9140-4. So what should I have done? Please don't say, "Fish a Burkheimer." I don't even know if Burkies existed then anyway. I think your notion that we need to be able to move the fish at will is flawed. There is a point where simply pulling harder means you're going to end up with a broken leader, a straightened hook, or just a hook pullout. Since we like to catch fish, I don't think pulling beyond the limits of our tackle is a good choice. Or a necessary one.

Unless, of course, we're fishing in a condition of warm water. Most of us have heard of lactic acid build up, and that can be fatal to fish. But thewer emperatures in the fall, winter, and spring are cool enough that dangerous lactic acid build up doesn't occur. So physiologically it just isn't necessary that we be able to ". . . move the fish at will." The fish can survive being played by both an expert and relative novice angler when the water temperature is cool. Fish handling, of course, can be another matter altogether. But here we're talking about having a rod suitable for the task. And that is why in threads like these, from time to time I mention that a rod isn't even necessary to the act of playing a fish. Of course a suitable rod makes the task far easier, but I'm talking about necessity, and what it takes to land a fish in a condition to be released alive and stay alive. And that is terminal tackle. And that usually means leader material that you can pull on hard enough to tire out the fish. I could add, "in a reasonable amount of time," but then that starts another whole argument about how long one should play a fish. I'll save that for another time.
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How many times in your life has that happened?? How much would having hooked that fish on a 11 ft 6 wt worsened the situation?

At what point is it your responsibility as an angler to forego landing a fish like that and simply breaking them off?

A double barreled shot gun is great for home defense, but this one time my home was robbed by 50 guys so my shotgun was not good enough...
 
Buzzy said:
Aw come on, I didn't just break my Edge. (What a hassle!)
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To be clear: I didn't break the Edge. The Edge broke all by itself during my very first attempt at normal operations. "This is a Gary Loomis blank..." :poop:
 
adamcu280 said:
To be clear: I didn't break the Edge. The Edge broke all by itself during my very first attempt at normal operations. "This is a Gary Loomis blank..." :poop:
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Well when your design philosophy is lighter=higher performance breakage is going to happen.
 
Salmo_g said:
Rob,

I'd like to explore your opinion just a bit more here. Specifically this part, ". . . your rod should be sufficient to move the fish at will except when the fish is running." Why do you think this? It looks like a control issue, but not being able to control a fish is pretty common in my experience with trout and steelhead fishing in the early stage of playing a fish beginning just after setting the hook. Once the runs are over, I have been able to move a good trout, but the darn thing resists moving toward my net, which is where I want to move it to. With a heavier rod, I could try to have it my way and move the fish toward my landing net, but absent a heavier leader tippet and heavier gauge hook wire, the result would likely be a broken leader, hook pull out, or hook breakage. My point is that part of the time spent playing a fish, control and the ability to move it at will just isn't one of the choices on the menu.

Your statement got me to thinking about the largest steelhead I ever caught, a calculated 26+ pounds. I was fishing with a Sage 9140-4, pretty much the gold standard of steelhead Spey rods at the time. And it's certainly a more powerful rod than my old 8 and 9 weight single hand rods that I used over the years. My fly made a traditional swing and stopped like it had snagged a rock. In fact that's what I thought had happened until I sensed a slight movement that rocks don't make. I tightened up and bent the rod to the corks, held that pose, and that fish did not move one inch for 20 minutes. I could not move it. I questioned whether I had actually sensed life on the end of my line because that fish simply did not move. So obviously I could not "move the fish at will." At the 20 minute mark on my watch, the fish slowly swam upstream and took a position downstream of a small boulder. I still could not move that fish at will. At the 25 minute mark the fish was tired, and I gradually led it toward shore where it rolled to one side, and I was able to land it.

I have a couple 10 weight Spey rods, but they aren't really measurably significantly more powerful than the old 9140-4. So what should I have done? Please don't say, "Fish a Burkheimer." I don't even know if Burkies existed then anyway. I think your notion that we need to be able to move the fish at will is flawed. There is a point where simply pulling harder means you're going to end up with a broken leader, a straightened hook, or just a hook pullout. Since we like to catch fish, I don't think pulling beyond the limits of our tackle is a good choice. Or a necessary one.

Unless, of course, we're fishing in a condition of warm water. Most of us have heard of lactic acid build up, and that can be fatal to fish. But the water temperatures in the fall, winter, and spring are cool enough that dangerous lactic acid build up doesn't occur. So physiologically it just isn't necessary that we be able to ". . . move the fish at will." The fish can survive being played by both an expert and relative novice angler when the water temperature is cool. Fish handling, of course, can be another matter altogether. But here we're talking about having a rod suitable for the task. And that is why in threads like these, from time to time I mention that a rod isn't even necessary to the act of playing a fish. Of course a suitable rod makes the task far easier, but I'm talking about necessity, and what it takes to land a fish in a condition to be released alive and stay alive. And that is terminal tackle. And that usually means leader material that you can pull on hard enough to tire out the fish. I could add, "in a reasonable amount of time," but then that starts another whole argument about how long one should play a fish. I'll save that for another time.
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Excellent reply. This conversation comes up occasionally when people encounter truly large fish. There are a lot of situations where you can't move fish at will, no matter what rod you're using. Even if you have 20# test leader, and could "move the fish at will," it would injure trout to pull that hard on them during the early stages of a fight. Most of the time I encounter really big trout, it's in situations where you can't use leader or hooks strong enough to pull that hard anyway. I like to fish gear that is as strong as I can get away with for the situation in case I do run into a really big fish, but there's a lot of nuance to what that means, and it's definitely situation based. In general, I think a lot of people here have the right idea and are just saying don't go way too light on gear.
 
Rob Allen said:
How many times in your life has that happened?? How much would having hooked that fish on a 11 ft 6 wt worsened the situation?

At what point is it your responsibility as an angler to forego landing a fish like that and simply breaking them off?

A double barreled shot gun is great for home defense, but this one time my home was robbed by 50 guys so my shotgun was not good enough...
Click to expand...
Only the one time with steelhead, quite a few times with trout. A 6 wt rod tends toward the direction of no rod at all, so the situation would have been worse for me. The fish wouldn't have noticed the difference. The odds of the outcome would change toward a broken leader or the hook coming free from the steelhead. As for when breaking the fish off is the right thing to do, I guess when the angler realizes that the chance of landing the fish goes from "likely" to "hopeless" is that point.

In the case of warm water, it's best not to play a trout or steelhead at all. One time a friend and I made a difficult hike to a beaver pond in July to fish for cutthroat. We pumped up our float tubes and enjoyed some good fishing. As I floated around I saw 3 or 4 trout laying on the bottom and realized they were fish that I had released. I had understood that these ponds were fed by springs that keep them cool. Wrong! I took the water temperature; it was 72*F. 73 is said to be lethal. We had hiked there to fish, so we cut off our fly at the hook bend and fished a while longer for bites before making the hike out. That was a learning experience; I've avoided fishing where water temperatures are too warm since then. And I exercise caution in fishing water that is 65 to 68* because lactic acid build up does occur in a trout's blood at those temperatures.

50 robbers? I guess you need an AR 15 in addition to your shotgun.
 
Nick Clayton said:
Sounds like it's the Marlin we should really be wary of lol
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I used to free dive at the fad bouys off HI spearing small school ahi after chopping some aku and chumming them to the surface…almost shit my wetsuit when a 10’ oceanic white tip showed up…and another time when a 250 pb marlin cruised nearby, all lit up electric blue like he was about to spear something too…
 
Years ago I was fishing for Halibut in San Diego Bay with 8lb mono. I accidentally hooked a huge Bat Ray. I might of as well hooked on to a city bus. The power of that fish compared with my tackle was comical. It easily spooled me, and I was lucky that it broke the line at the knot, so I did not lose all my line. I still, today, think of this fish. Myself being so powerless, so humbled, so "laughed at" by Mother Nature. I saw that fish bite.. and then it proceeded to teach me a valuable lesson, that I have never forgotten.
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
Years ago I was fishing for Halibut in San Diego Bay with 8lb mono. I accidentally hooked a huge Bat Ray. I might of as well hooked on to a city bus. The power of that fish compared with my tackle was comical. It easily spooled me, and I was lucky that it broke the line at the knot, so I did not lose all my line. I still, today, think of this fish. Myself being so powerless, so humbled, so "laughed at" by Mother Nature. I saw that fish bite.. and then it proceeded to teach me a valuable lesson, that I have never forgotten.
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I used to fish for leopard sharks when I lived in the bay area. Hooked a few bat rays incidentally, and those things pull hard and take super long runs. Landed 2 or 3 in my life. It's tricky to unhook and release them.
 
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