fly design. walk the dog thoughts....

[clarkman]

Ok, so on my typical smallie fly design, I've managed to get most of them to have a really great walk the dog type action when stripped and allowed to pause before the next strip. I've often thought of this as either one of 2 things (these are ~3-4" non-articulated singles with no additional weight or foam embedded). 1. stiff back end causes mayhem up front, making it kick. or 2. regardless of back end with a relatively bulky head that pushes water.

Here's my issue: today I was fishing a recent fly of mine (actually seen in my most recent "What's catching you fish" post, so you're probably wondering why the hell I'm perseverating on this). My issue with that fly is that try as I might, I couldn't get it to really kick much on the pause. Point being, the back end was a rather soft synthetic (I think from FTD) and a head of reverse tied arctic fox. I thought that the head (being reverse tied) would be enough bulk to really push that water. What I'm seeing in the water though, is the head compressing and pulsing, rather than pushing. I know I know, stupid issue to have since it obviously works for catching fish, but I'm more curious as to what other thoughts are on how one can get a fly (single hook, smaller fly--e.g. 3-4") to really kick both ways on the pause. My theory is above, but no scientific studies have been done as of yet.

 

[Chucker]

A bit of weight on the back end of the hook shank, or just behind that, is the best way to get that action that I have tried. However, if you want a neutral fly, you need to balance the weight with foam etc, and that’s a pain in the ass. Just having a bulky head that slows down faster than the tail end usually works OK.

 

[SculpinSwinger]

I am a novice, but always thought of it as mass in the rear and water push up front - as well as a vertical profile rather than round.

 

[SpeyrodGB]

I am guessing you want more left/right action. I managed to get a few tiger flies to do that. One way was to use the plastic fish masks. The mask seems make the bucktail taller (top and bottom) and thinner along the sides. Unfortunately I did very experimentation with it. I’m not sure if the book “Fleye Design”,by Bob Popovics, would have any information. I’m curious to see what you come up with.

 

[clarkman]

A bit of weight on the back end of the hook shank, or just behind that, is the best way to get that action that I have tried. However, if you want a neutral fly, you need to balance the weight with foam etc, and that’s a pain in the ass. Just having a bulky head that slows down faster than the tail end usually works OK.

That's what I do with my musky flies....a touch of foam, and I'm good to go. Not bad at all when you're dealing with an 8-10" fly. I've got that pretty dialed. It's the smaller stuff that I've started to play with different materials that I'm starting to have issues.....but even then more when I go with materials like fox or finn raccoon reverse tied for the head....just doesn't get the push, but still pulses nicely (I mean shit, still catches fish, but for me right now with this, it's more about figuring out a consistent way to get a particular action using specific materials. I'll play around with weighting a little bit more. It's definitely easier to do with small flies such as these little smallmouth flies rather than a big musky fly.

 

[clarkman]

I am guessing you want more left/right action. I managed to get a few tiger flies to do that. One way was to use the plastic fish masks. The mask seems make the bucktail taller (top and bottom) and thinner along the sides. Unfortunately I did very experimentation with it. I’m not sure if the book “Fleye Design”,by Bob Popovics, would have any information. I’m curious to see what you come up with.

Yeah that's just it, I've got the large fly game pretty dialed for what I want those things to do (almost more of a left/right/side then slowly right itself on the pause....kinda Joe Goodspeed style but without all of the goop he uses). It's more downsizing plus changing up materials a little bit that's causing problems (for me, the fish didn't seem to care though).

 

[clarkman]

It's also mostly with bullet heads like these, which I've really only done with natural material for smallie flies thus far....

Most of my smallie flies that behave like I want them to are dubbed heads, but not bullet heads. I do feel like the bullet head flies last longer, but I just can't seem to get them to behave exactly how I want.....yeah, first world problems here, but the struggle is real.....lol

 

[RichS]

I have had good success with a bit of softex or liquid fusion to stiffen up the head a little bit and also hold a more vertical head

 

[mcswny]

Following intently!

 

[Rob Allen]

Ok, so on my typical smallie fly design, I've managed to get most of them to have a really great walk the dog type action when stripped and allowed to pause before the next strip. I've often thought of this as either one of 2 things (these are ~3-4" non-articulated singles with no additional weight or foam embedded). 1. stiff back end causes mayhem up front, making it kick. or 2. regardless of back end with a relatively bulky head that pushes water.

Here's my issue: today I was fishing a recent fly of mine (actually seen in my most recent "What's catching you fish" post, so you're probably wondering why the hell I'm perseverating on this). My issue with that fly is that try as I might, I couldn't get it to really kick much on the pause. Point being, the back end was a rather soft synthetic (I think from FTD) and a head of reverse tied arctic fox. I thought that the head (being reverse tied) would be enough bulk to really push that water. What I'm seeing in the water though, is the head compressing and pulsing, rather than pushing. I know I know, stupid issue to have since it obviously works for catching fish, but I'm more curious as to what other thoughts are on how one can get a fly (single hook, smaller fly--e.g. 3-4") to really kick both ways on the pause. My theory is above, but no scientific studies have been done as of yet.

What makes walking baits really walk is
1. Little resistance from line on the water.
2. Instant slack between twitches.

Not sure either of those can be done with a fly line.

Of course I'm talking 8-10 inches side to side with 6 -8 inches forward movement.

 

[SpeyrodGB]

It's also mostly with bullet heads like these, which I've really only done with natural material for smallie flies thus far....

Most of my smallie flies that behave like I want them to are dubbed heads, but not bullet heads. I do feel like the bullet head flies last longer, but I just can't seem to get them to behave exactly how I want.....yeah, first world problems here, but the struggle is real.....lol

Maybe spin some deer hair at the head and trim the sides narrower than top and bottom. Just keep the hair “somewhat” sparse to create the water push. Just a thought.

I really need to set my tying stuff back up. Yer making me think. Not good.

 

[clarkman]

What makes walking baits really walk is
1. Little resistance from line on the water.
2. Instant slack between twitches.

Not sure either of those can be done with a fly line.

Of course I'm talking 8-10 inches side to side with 6 -8 inches forward movement.

Thanks @Rob Allen for that extra info regarding retrieve.

 

[albula]

Having spent a good deal of time "walking the dog" for reds and specks I think the instantaneous slack dropping the tip with monofilament provides is an essential element. Try a fly that almost does what you want with a longer and lighter leader and tippet. You need what ever you are throwing to stop on a dime.

 

[Rob Allen]

Maybe if possible keep casts short and rod position fairly high??? Try to minimize the line tension..
Just trying to think it through.

 

[Pink Nighty]

Just spitballing here, but maybe a retrieve similar to the reverse spider rod twitch and strip with a longer pause between the twitch and strip might give you the slack you need to stop it fast.

That retrieve and a longer, finer leader like rob said should create a lot of slack after the twitch.

 

[rattlesnake]

Were you fishing the fly in Stillwater or in current?

Either way I think the introduction of slack is a big help in getting the fly to kick, just as @Rob Allen said for conventional. When I strip jerkbait style fly, I often strip with line hand but also pull back with the rod hand and then ‘give the rod back’ to make sure line is slack. Some flies require a little more intense strip than others so maybe this will assist with this fly.

Also, a big fan of keel weighting the fly even if it’s more to get the weight at the back of the fly since it will have more momentum to push the head to the side. Matt grajewski has a tying video about this point and explains it like a heavily loaded trailer pushing a truck. Consider trying a some wraps of lead or similar on the hook bend. You can do this as a refurb of current flies and use some uv resin to glue to lead on. Start with a bunch and if it’s too much, pinch some off and see if lighter is better. Allows you to work out a few weights before you settle and know how much is good for that fly.

 

[DoesItFloat]

I used to fish big surface plugs for specks and tried to tie flies that would imitate the action. The most important thing was a loop knot and a tight-slack-tight-slack retrieve. Never really came up with anything that worked well and was fun to cast on a fly rod, basically tied smaller versions of Spook lures with foam and a trailer hook, but had far more success getting strikes with big poppers. I could get a fly walking, but it was all rod and no line retrieve, so not really a consistent line all the way back to me.

 

[clarkman]

Yesterday was current and some slack. . With specific designs (stiffer tail, less give in the head) I can get it to kick pretty well in stillwater and when watching the fish response, they (trout & bass) really respond well to that kick that presumably mimics a dying baitfish and will just engulf the fly. It's when in heavier current along with softer tail/softer head that I can't get it as easily. Utilizing more of a jerk strip style helps, but I think incorporating some weight into the equation as mentioned.

Good call on the keel experimentation as well, I had completely forgotten about that. Yeah, I tied up several flies in the style of Matt's Yardsale and they do work great, but they're also articulated. For the smaller singles I'm trying to get to behave in that manner, it's a little different.

It also just dawned on me that Kelly Galloup utilizes mallard to get some of his flies to behave a certain way, so I'll have to experiment with that as well.

 

[DoesItFloat]

 

[rattlesnake]

Will need to check out the gallop mallard technique.

Tangentially - anytime I see a fly that’s 5-6” I think how great it would be for the waters I fish at closer to 3.5”. But even with good consideration to details, the fly pattern couldn’t be scaled down. Not saying this is your issue but I found it interesting that some styles or patterns are good when the fly is longer than when shorter. And certainly vice versa.