Show off your favorite abandoned-garbage-riverside-homeless-camps of 2022!

[Dustin Chromers]

I am sure the effect is not measurable. That does not mean that there is no effect.
One issue is that we don't do well kerping people out of the sidewalk tent. Hence, my hoping that people read about the study from Van.
Another issue is that at 130k the cost of what we are doing now is similar to the cost of incarceration. When you have to factor in the court costs who knows what the cost is. If you look at states who have laws that put the homeless in jail, they have an increased amount of jail residents roughly equal to our homeless population per capita. So, the choose to house them in jail.
It seems like those are the 2 ways we deal in the USA at this point. Neither seem ideal.
I don't mind institutionalizing certsin portions of our homeless populations, be it in jail or another pseudo jail facility. The repeat offenders who threaten the small bodied humans that I love need to be dealt with in a way that limits their impact.
The single parents and the kids are the portion that I really think need to be treated with compassion and community. I grew up poor. I know others who were homeless as kids and many more that were oh so close to living in the tent.
I just think that an ounce of prevention is worth 130 million dollars of cure. It is so important to keep the transition from the car to the tent from happening and actually reversing it from car to heated space. It may actually just cost 75 hundy...canadian. What pitician or group has the balls to figure out how to have that chrck signed. I suspect the ROI is as high as Lamar Odom at the Bunny Ranch.

I agree with all of the above with one exception. I don't think anybody here doesn't feel pity or doesn't want to help a single mother, family, or anybody with a child. That's a no brainer. Clearly vulnerable elements of our society we want to protect. I know for me I do, right or wrong, hold disdain for the young males that have an attitude about it and are basically living feral on drugs. I don't care if you do drugs, I don't care if you live feral. I do care if you are trashing the place, stealing, or preying on others. I believe we basically agree. Where I don't agree is that for that kind of money I need to see a dent in the problem or some kind of accountability. A growing problem with a growing budget makes me uneasy. Especially when you, yard, and myself are going to do this and save the people of Seattle 48 million. After which I'm going to buy you a giant steak dinner and give a nice speech about working together and our championing the human spirit.

 

[Anonymous member 148]

My wife is a nurse at a big hospital. The hospital stopped paying bonuses for extra shifts late last summer. More than half of her paycheck goes to the health care premium for our family, it's hardly free. The hospital is dangerously understaffed. Its solution is to hire more travel nurses, who make about twice as much per hour as staff nurses (but no benefits).

Nursing is a tough job! Thank God people are willing to do it.

My favorite nurse was actually a travel nurse from New Zealand, nice guy seemed to really enjoy the situation. I'm glad I got what I needed done now before things go more to shit.

 

[SteelHeadDave]

A dog has no idea if he’s homeless...food water and attention is about all they need.

Yeah, that was pretty much my point but maybe I took it a bit deeper. I responded to a comment that someone “felt bad for the dogs owned by homeless people” or something of that nature. To me that implies that homeless dogs live a poor life and homeless people are not capable or deserving of being pet owners. That concept rubs me the wrong way for a variety of reasons.

 

[FinLuver]

Not just in the USA. We have the same issues here in Canada, with the same public divide between those who suggest "the solution" is to force the homeless into prisons or mental institutions (as if there is capacity in either), and those who suggest a harm reduction approach (such as providing the homeless with housing, decriminalized access to safer drugs, detox, and medical help).

If this problem wasn't so massive and complex, I think it would have been solved some time ago. And because it's a brand new type of crisis, we are having to figure out novel solutions that, I think, will take a long time to have effect, if ever. And I think much more effort needs to be made to help the women who are on the streets, because they are suffering more (theft, beatings and rapes) than men. And there are a lot less shelters for women, at least here in B.C.)

All I know is that NO person, suffering from homelessness, trauma, addiction, and/or mental illness, ever said to themselves when they were little kids, "When I grow up, I want to be poor, traumatized, beaten, raped, addicted, mentally ill, hungry, and without a home." And I also have a hard time understanding why some people say that this outcome is a result of personal choice. From what I've read and heard, most, if not all, people in this situation have a background of trauma.

There’s money to be made in the problem…whether it be the drug cartel, private help organizations, or the government itself…

The solution to the problem is there, just not wanted by some.

 

[Billy]

.

I believe Seattle spent 138 million in 2021 and it grew in numbers, scope, and intensity. How much money do you think will fix the problem?

I'm not asking to be combative. I too see lots of federal money squandered that could go to help citizens.

That probably excludes the cost we payed in medical services. ER visits, ambulance trips etc. I can't even fathom those costs...

 

[FinLuver]

I really don't understand the lack of health care workers, around here they are throwing money at people to work in the industry. A relative who works at a hospital told me they are giving nurses 300$ a day bonus pay along with OT, practicly free healthcare through your employer and other perks. I'm thinking maybe I should go back to school except I hate people and don't like touching them... The money is almost making it tempting. Why don't people want to work?

Government regulations destroyed the healthcare industry. Hell, the government damn-near destroys anything it puts its hands into. It’s the nature of government these days.

 

[Buzzy]

One thing that should be mentioned with the aspect of more institutions is that our current medical systems seems to be slowly collapsing.

How would you even find medical staff to work in these institutions when hospitals in this state for example can hardly staff for the floor and are hemorrhaging billions attempting to?

Spot on! With somewhere in the neighborhood of 30% of MD’s leaving (quit, retire) since covid - I have no clue what the statistics are for nurses, Billy, but no doubt your profession is hard hit: burnout? Overwhelmed. Overworked? If so, who’s going to staff mental health facilities? Try to find a bed in assisted living or a nursing home (whatever they’re called nowadays). Damn near impossible.

I could rant but as @BDD said in post #3, this subject has been debated many times before.

 

[Evan B]

Government regulations destroyed the healthcare industry. Hell, the government damn-near destroys anything it puts its hands into. It’s the nature of government these days.

I can tell you with full confidence that the issue is magnitudes more complicated than that.

 

[SurfnFish]

Government regulations destroyed the healthcare industry. Hell, the government damn-near destroys anything it puts its hands into. It’s the nature of government these days.

From a married couple with a combined 70 years in managing healthcare operations, this is right in my wheelhouse.
The government does not regulate healthcare. Hospital and large clinics are inspected to an extensive set of standards designed to ensure patient safety by an organization called The Joint Commission, which is a non-profit that accredits over 22,000 heatlh care organizations. Whereas the 'every three year' deep dive accreditation inspections (my consulting business was started preparing the engineering and biomedical departments of hospitals for TJC inspections ) are not mandatory, without TJC accreditation the subject hospital cannot receive the Medicare reimbursement payments essential to maintaining the elderly base.
What has ruined health care is the opposite of the government - it is the rapidly expanding acquistion of major hospital chains by for profit corporations, which immediately try and squeeze the operating margins to increase profits, performed by lowering staff levels, raising the Chargemaster (markup on goods and services ) which increases patient out of pocket costs over insurance coverage, and by incentivizing surgeons who conduct uber expensive procedures with bonuses.
The key metric for a hospital's safety profile is the morbidity rate - how many patients in a hospital became sick/infected/died from negligent hygiene practices. The morbidity rate in for profit hospitals is consistentlyhigher than non-profits due to the squeeze on staffing costs, as short staffing = less hygeine adherence, reduced hours of patient care per patient.
Want to lower heatlh care costs while increasing safety? Mandate all hospitals must be non-profit to receive Medicare reimbursement, forcing the corporatons out. It will reduce patient cost and improve the health and safety of the patients.

 

[Roper]

It seems if Seattle is spending that kind of coin and the problem is growing there's a problem with how it's being spent.

I feel like the three of us could take that cash and likely house the entire homeless population of Seattle and still have enough left over to grab dinner and drinks to congratulate ourselves and celebrate solving the homeless crisis.

And call me old fashioned but I think that is a monolithic amount of money. Especially to have no measurable desired results.

New edit.....More data and fun with numbers. If the figure Charles cited is correct and the estimate of 12,000 homeless in Seattle is accurate then we could house folks for 90 million. This is just going dollar at par with the Canadian dollar. So that leaves 48 million dollars to spare but in Seattle we spend more and still have 12,000 homeless. Something isn't adding up or they aren't as smart as the Canadians.

Again no political judgements or otherwise just crunching figures and thinking out loud tossing my idea hat into the ring. The only question is are we doing Italian then drinks or Mexican and drinks at the restaurant?

Italian, Ragu Bolognese and a nice Rosso…

 

[kerrys]

Medical care for profit is not working. As a two time cancer survivor with almost ten years dealing with the medical care institutions and insurance companies, in my opinion, our current system is unnecessarily killing people.

 

[Banned user]

I have no solutions, or even good suggestions. Our country is so screwed up on so many levels, that I don't see a united front forming to seriously help those who need it.

However, I will say that I am really pleased that this has made it to 8 "pages" without the conversation going off the rails and turning into personal invectives. Good job, everybody!

 

[Banned user]

I heard the stories from my dad too, he was an orphan selling newspapers on the street at 6 years old.
Those CCC type programs built some of the trails I hike out here on the OP, and I know some of the children (now old men) of the guys who built them.
I think about those trail builders, and the funding that got them built...and am grateful for the foresight involved.

Not to mention places like Timberline Lodge, the Highway 26 tunnel, etc.

 

[Scottybs]

From a married couple with a combined 70 years in managing healthcare operations, this is right in my wheelhouse.
The government does not regulate healthcare. Hospital and large clinics are inspected to an eextensive set of standards designed to promote patient safety by an organization called The Joint Commission, which is a non-profit that accredits over 22,000 heatlh care organizations. Whereas the 'every three year' deep dive accreditation inspections (my consulting business was started preparing the engineering and biomedical departments of hospitals for TJC inspections ) are not mandatory, without TJC accreditation the subject hospital cannot receive the Medicare reimbursement payments essential to maintaining the elderly base.
What has ruined health care is the opposite of the government - it is the rapidly expanding acquistion of major hospital chains by for profit corporations, which immediately try and squeeze the operating margins to increase profits, performed by lowering staff levels, raising the Chargemaster (markup on goods and services ) which increases patient out of pocket costs over insurance coverage, and by incentivizing surgeons who conduct uber expensive procedures with bonuses.
The key metric for a hospital's safety profile is the morbidity rate - how many patients in a hospital became sick/infected/died from negligent hygiene practices. The morbidity rate in for profit hospitals is consistentlyhigher than non-profits due to the squeeze on staffing costs, as short staffing = less hygeine adherence, reduced hours of patient care per patient.
Want to lower heatlh care costs while increasing safety? Mandate all hospitals run as non-profits, kick the corporations the hell out. It will reduce patient cost and improvve the health an safety of the patients.

Sorry to sidetrack… how can the medical field charge different rates for services for different people. Seems wrong to me.

 

[Mossback]

But it is a small price to pay, those lives lost, for the ability to ensure the corporate profits and resultant political donations from those profits that further the for profit medical business...ask any free market proponent, and they'll tell you that anything else is socialism.

Sad state of affairs...

 

[nwbobber]

I feel for all the dogs that are trapped alone in houses or chained up all day that get little to no attention except for when it’s convenient for the owner. Every person that is capable of having a loving relationship with a dog or pet should be able to. Homeless folks, disabled people, mentally challenged people, privileged fly fishing bros. Dogs can be great healers and the most loyal companions. If I were homeless and most likely struggling with deep depression I would be extremely grateful to have a dog by my side. That relationship might not look pretty to the common person but it’s the bond that counts the most. If homeless dogs could talk I’m sure they would tell you that living the homeless life with a dedicated and loving human is better than some of the worse alternatives (animal shelter/euthanasia, living mostly alone and going mad with little to no stimulation because the owner is too busy to give it attention etc.)

When we had dogs, they invariably preferred to be outside with us than inside.

Most of the dogs I see with homeless people seem well cared for, and it must give the human side of the relationship some reason to feel good about themselves. I think that is a good thing.

 

[Billy]

From a married couple with a combined 70 years in managing healthcare operations, this is right in my wheelhouse.
The government does not regulate healthcare. Hospital and large clinics are inspected to an eextensive set of standards designed to promote patient safety by an organization called The Joint Commission, which is a non-profit that accredits over 22,000 heatlh care organizations. Whereas the 'every three year' deep dive accreditation inspections (my consulting business was started preparing the engineering and biomedical departments of hospitals for TJC inspections ) are not mandatory, without TJC accreditation the subject hospital cannot receive the Medicare reimbursement payments essential to maintaining the elderly base.
What has ruined health care is the opposite of the government - it is the rapidly expanding acquistion of major hospital chains by for profit corporations, which immediately try and squeeze the operating margins to increase profits, performed by lowering staff levels, raising the Chargemaster (markup on goods and services ) which increases patient out of pocket costs over insurance coverage, and by incentivizing surgeons who conduct uber expensive procedures with bonuses.
The key metric for a hospital's safety profile is the morbidity rate - how many patients in a hospital became sick/infected/died from negligent hygiene practices. The morbidity rate in for profit hospitals is consistentlyhigher than non-profits due to the squeeze on staffing costs, as short staffing = less hygeine adherence, reduced hours of patient care per patient.
Want to lower heatlh care costs while increasing safety? Mandate all hospitals run as non-profits, kick the corporations the hell out. It will reduce patient cost and improvve the health an safety of the patients.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but...medicare reimbursement is not paying enough. Surgeries and babies are the only thing keeping a lot of hospitals functioning. I think I heard medicare reimbursement rates have hardly changed in 20 years. I assure you that patients are generally more complicated and more sick then even 5 years AGO thus more expensive. That isn't even looking at the cost of staff increasing, the issues of the strain covid put on the system and so on and so on.

It's like the same people that come at us if a patient is discharged too quickly or into an unsafe situation are the same people not willing to pay for a longer stay...

 

[nwbobber]

I really don't understand the lack of health care workers, around here they are throwing money at people to work in the industry. A relative who works at a hospital told me they are giving nurses 300$ a day bonus pay along with OT, practicly free healthcare through your employer and other perks. I'm thinking maybe I should go back to school except I hate people and don't like touching them... The money is almost making it tempting. Why don't people want to work?

In the last three years, I have been hearing about an overworked, exhausted class of worker in the healthcare system. On top of that they have had to endure the abuse of people unwilling for whatever reason to comply with rules set up to protect people in the healthcare environment from harm. They are quitting their jobs, and who can blame them.

 

[Dustin Chromers]

.

This may be an unpopular opinion but I encourage folks to look at what organizations spend on this issue. Even non profits. That's a tax status, not a business plan. I'm not going to name names but you can start with the city of Seattle. There is a homeless industrial complex. It's a ranch of sorrow and certain organisations are feeding at the trough. Now I agree that if you are working in this arena it's a hard job and you deserve to make a living. However, of the river of money flowing through the complex what amount actually gets to the business end of help? It's a fair question. There is little oversight and accountability especially at the government sector. Have a gander at some of the line items and you'll probably begin to see that this is a ranching business. Where there is crisis someone will always make money. The nicest buildings in my town are some sort of social service or addiction service. This is a problem where the "solutions" are the product as much as the "problem".

And before anyone thinks I'm some skeptical heartless cynic know this. I have taken homeless into my home. It was not easy and I was far from flush at the time. I wonder how many ultra compassionate sorts are willing or have done the same. I don't believe this is a problem you throw money at and it gets better. The Seattle and Portland data indicate the opposite. Now correlation isn't causation but one cannot ignore they are often related. I surmise if we did nothing. Literally nothing the problem would shrink rather than grow as it has with the added fuel of millions of dollars. Most of which not reaching the intended destination. I don't write this to be offensive or combative. I write this as an invitation to actually pull some financial docs and attempt to understand the flow of monetary resources in a ranch that needs cattle to function.

In the end the best gift you can give is the efficacy to help oneself. And that gift should be paid forward. You will not stop the suffering while perpetuating it.

 

[Pink Nighty]

This issue is close to me. My older brother has been in and out of homelessness over the last decade. He is wildly smart, engaging, entertaining and also broken in ways that don't allow him space in normal society, at least not anymore. I have personally housed him multiple times for extended periods, and he has always left my home with somewhere to go. It never lasts, as eventually his pursuit of drugs and the violence/crime/poverty that is associated with that pursuit leaves him in a position where he has no options but the street.

I no longer house him or give him financial support, as I have young children in the house and cannot trust that he will keep their environment safe nor afford to use my resources outside those girls. This was a hard choice but one I ultimately needed to make.

I often wonder what might have become of him if drugs were legal, available and regulated. I know the first time he did meth (the drug that has really fueled his spiral) he did it thinking it was coke. Not that cokes some kind of pious fun, but that introduction to meth was not his intent. It's a problem with black markets.

I wonder what might happen if companies did not drug test, and judged him solely on the work he did and how he treated his coworkers. I wonder what he might me if he didnt have a string of possession/distribution charges, or if he would have burgled and battered drug dealers if he could have bought his score at 711. I wonder if he would have HIV if it weren't for dirty needles in underground drug dens.

Addiction and mental illness suck, they are some of the hardest parts of society to contend with. When people dont make choices in their own interest and repeatedly self destruct, it is difficult not to give up on them. I do wish, however, that as a society we could stop pretending that these issues can be legislated or enforced away. That there is any amount of border patrol that can keep drugs out. That there is any amount of policing that can stop people from chasing their addiction.

All it has led to is accidental ODs on unknown substances of unknown potency, inflated the price of a few hours escape into several days pay, created a whole class of "unemployables" with little chance of redemption, plunged the country into spiraling debt, imprisoned millions of our citizens and created the evil drug cartels we all despise.

I wonder how many people would be homeless if they were not criminals to begin with.