a non-political climate change thread

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The term "fossil fuel" was coined by the oil industry. Dinosaurs turned into oil...right? That makes us believe that oil is rare (thus expensive) and will never be replaced once gone. However some scientist claim that oil is actually the second most abundant liquid (behind water) on our planet,, and it is being replaced faster then we are extracting it. Like it or not the modern human is very dependent on oil, and at this time no other alternatives are ready to replace it. EV cars, Wind farms, Solar panels are merely pie in the sky solutions, that make a very few people very rich, and IMHO are just speed bumps to our future into true clean energy, which does not include Lithium strip mines, fields of discarded windmills and millions of acres of (permanently) destroyed land from (failed) solar energy plants.
 
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SSPey said:
Extreme opinions that are shaped by tribalism are often closed to facts, but those extremes (which tend to have the loudest mouths and fewest facts) are not the vast middle.

Likewise, many people don’t think much of it, and can certainly be influenced by facts when presented them.

Finally, people who are ok with evidence-based thinking and policies are always amenable to facts. For example, the stereotypical tree huggers who’d cry when a single tree was cut down, or the loggers who thought that clearcutting was the only way … both eventually convinced that thinning of some second-growth forests is a good thing for both environmental stewardship and resource extraction.

Portraying people as unswayable by facts simply plays into the hands of the myopic worldview of those dumb asses
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I appreciate the optimism.

Guess I assume most is a "known."

Perhaps I've spent too much time with the choir.
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
The term "fossil fuel" was coined by the oil industry. Dinosaurs turned into oil...right? That makes us believe that oil is rare (thus expensive) and will never be replaced once gone. However some scientist claim that oil is actually the second most abundant liquid (behind water) on our planet,, and it is being replaced faster then we are extracting it. Like it or not the modern human is very dependent on oil, and at this time no other alternatives are ready to replace it. EV cars, Wind farms, Solar panels are merely pie in the sky solutions, that make very few people very rich, and IMHO are just speed bumps to our future into true clean energy, which does not include Lithium strip mines, fields of discarded windmills and millions of acres of (permanently) destroyed land from solar energy plants.
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Don't forget the African kids working in those Chinese strip mines. Think blood diamond but with cobalt.
 
As a fisherman that spent 4 decades working under and on top of the Pacific Ocean, there is no doubt in my mind that our world has experienced "climate change". Pelagic fish are very good at showing humans things about our oceans. That being said, during those decades I witness the horrific, constant erosion of the environment. Just look at a Skin Diver magazine from 1970...Huge Sea Bass, 8lb lobsters, dozens of White abalone, all taken free-diving at La Jolla Cove. Dive that cove now and none of those animals will be found. But the villain is not "climate change". It is the 3 million people living directly above the shoreline. The brake linings of their cars, the oil oozing out there engines, their house cats pooping outside (spreading disease to sea creatures), toxic metals from industry, and the biggest polluter of them all.. the U.S. military. This, to me, is a microcosm of the entire "climate change" discussion..... They say "Don't look at those 3 million filthy humans.....look at the tiny percentage of Co2 in the outer layers of our atmosphere." And I say "I can't see the CO2, but I can see the 3 million people". And they respond with " Thats sure is convenient for us isn't? Now just give us some more taxes and we'll fix this mess up right away"
 
Here is a thought: Wouldn't Climate Change inaction costs be significant enough to raise the National Debt even more? At least three posters have stated that our National Debt would be a more significant burden on future generations than having to live with post Climate Change destruction.

www.npr.org

What Are The Costs Of Climate Change?

More frequent and severe wildfires and hurricanes have caused billions of dollars of damage in the U.S. Climate experts warn the costs to the economy and to individual families are only rising.
www.npr.org www.npr.org
 
Flymph said:
Here is a thought: Wouldn't Climate Change inaction costs be significant enough to raise the National Debt even more? At least three posters have stated that our National Debt would be a more significant burden on future generations than having to live with post Climate Change destruction.

www.npr.org

What Are The Costs Of Climate Change?

More frequent and severe wildfires and hurricanes have caused billions of dollars of damage in the U.S. Climate experts warn the costs to the economy and to individual families are only rising.
www.npr.org www.npr.org
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National debt won't matter when it's this....
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Whether or not crushing poverty would burden future Americans more then the hypothetical "Climate Change destruction" is worthy of contemplation.. IMHO Americans can and should strive for a cleaner environment, however raising our taxes aint going to make one bit of difference in the climate. Full stop. Let that sink in..... Giving $17,000 dollars of tax money to a dentist so he can buy an $80,000 EV car that likely makes no impact on our weather.... is far different then giving a single mom $17,000 so she can buy a $24,000 Honda Civic to drive her kids to school and then to work so that she can feed her kids. That $17,000 dollars was taken from someone. Government produces nothing. Now some folks say OK lets give the dentist $17,000... the single mom can take the bus....After all we're saving the world. See how that works out?
 
Canuck from Kansas said:
Thanks for the rant, very helpful! Who here exactly was guilt tripping you into anything or lecturing you about anything, perhaps I missed it?

Cheers
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Not a rant. Just a perspective. If that's all you got out of it I can't help that. Sorry it isn't to your liking. I don't really have to take snark from those with a ten fold higher carbon footprint than myself anyway so save it. You can keep on talking while some of us are quietly walking.
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
Whether or not crushing poverty would burden future Americans more then the hypothetical "Climate Change destruction" is worthy of contemplation.. IMHO Americans can and should strive for a cleaner environment, however raising our taxes aint going to make one bit of difference in the climate. Full stop. Let that sink in..... Giving $17,000 dollars of tax money to a dentist so he can buy an $80,000 EV car that likely makes no impact on our weather.... is far different then giving a single mom $17,000 so she can buy a $24,000 Honda Civic to drive her kids to school and then to work so that she can feed her kids. That $17,000 dollars was taken from someone. Government produces nothing. Now some folks say OK lets give the dentist $17,000... the single mom can take the bus....After all we're saving the world. See how that works out?
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Great comparison, I'm in the taxation is theft category.
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
Our national debt is now at a place where (essentially) $92,000 dollars is owed by every man woman and child in the U.S.......That's a lot of debt to hang on a newborn baby. We could multiply that debt 10 times over and still likely not make any measurable difference in the Earth's climate. I hear people ask "What kind of world will we be leaving our children?" Well, the answer seems to be a world where our children will be crushed financially, largely due to the idiotic spending of our wealth in the guise of "changing the weather". If things like poverty and mayhem engulf our nation then "climate change" will be even lower on the list of concerns for Americans.....even if it does get really, really serious.
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Welcome to the modern feudal system where the serfs shoulder the burden for whatever crisis demands austerity. But don't worry our pandering ineffective leaders will save us? I'm calling bullshit because it is.

This isn't to say the EPA has no place. This isn't to say that taking lead out of gasoline wasn't the best idea since sliced bread, it was.

Rather than champion policies on their intention we should be asking serious questions about their results and champion those with solid results and minimal pain.

We don't do that though as a society because we are like rabid sports fans welded to an ideological view that is pure, but not reality.
 
Ecological+economic+ political are intregally bound in this topic.

The label of global warming, global climate change or seasonal variation from a norm is reason enough to do something rational in an attempt to slow change down. We as human individuals are inherently short sighted. That is our largest hurdle to overcome, along with our individualism. We are not “Borg-like”… so we are effed. Personally with my limited scope of humankind and life, my selfishness of what I want and what i choose to believe- I am going to wade through this salad and do what I can to lesson my contribution to effing up this dynamic blue marble I live on. I do not care what you or we call we should not ignore it.
 
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Anyone that has ever lived on a boat knows that people only need a fraction of the energy (and water) that most Americans use. No dishwasher. No washer dryer combo. No lawn to mow or water. 12 volt batteries charged with a wind generator, short showers from solar heated bags etc.... How many Americans that actually fear "climate change" can be measured by those countless souls that unnecessarily suck up tons of "carbon footprints". "I'm so afraid that global warming will destroy all of humanity. That's why I'm sitting here in my air conditioned house, while my laundry is in the dryer, my dishes are in the dishwasher, my Jacuzzi is warming up, my sprinklers are watering my lawn and I'm just trying to relax by my heated pool in my tanning bed."
 
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We all “consume” and “shit”

We all accrue buy or use resources and once we are done with those modified resources we throw them and all the the processing away with them and forever trudge through them in machines to smooth our mobility
 
I don't want to be demonized because I exist. I exist, and consume to exist. I shouldn't be taxed and guilted for this. It's almost an inalienable right...

This shouldn't be a political issue anyways, if yall haven't figured it out yet I lean conservative with a sprinkling of libertarianism. I feel like I'm hovering above the fray looking down on 2 sides fighting. Everyone equates conservatives with destruction of the environment, its not true. I don't want the destruction of our environment. Yet I don't want the political injected total control of the population due to 'climate change' I can see where this takes humanity. And it's happened before, and before that and before that...
 
FontinalisFin said:
I don't want to be demonized because I exist. I exist, and consume to exist. I shouldn't be taxed and guilted for this. It's almost an inalienable right...

This shouldn't be a political issue anyways, if yall haven't figured it out yet I lean conservative with a sprinkling of libertarianism. I feel like I'm hovering above the fray looking down on 2 sides fighting. Everyone equates conservatives with destruction of the environment, its not true. I don't want the destruction of our environment. Yet I don't want the political injected total control of the population due to 'climate change' I can see where this takes humanity. And it's happened before, and before that and before that...
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The green movement has remarkably and successfully captured the spirit of original sin found in Catholicism very well. Yep, a turnoff got me as well on both fronts.
 
Dustin Chromers said:
Not a rant. Just a perspective. If that's all you got out of it I can't help that. Sorry it isn't to your liking. I don't really have to take snark from those with a ten fold higher carbon footprint than myself anyway so save it. You can keep on talking while some of us are quietly walking.
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Well I stand corrected - you answered my post, you did accuse someone, have no idea who, of guilt tripping and lecturing you, so yeah came off as a rant to me .... and you have no idea what my carbon footprint is, sheesh, talk about snark.

Have a good evening.

cheers
 
Long ago the efforts to "save the planet" and combat "man made pollution" were noble and pure. The EPA were the heroes. The polluting big companies were the villains. Much was done about the horrific atrocities. Those simpler days are long gone. The EPA is now a corrupt as hell institution with goals other then protecting our environment. It is no longer about stopping pollution. It is far far more complex now. China controls the lion's share of all the new "green" technologies (batteries, wind turbines and solar panels) that we are being forced into adapting to ..at great expense to Average Joe American ...and with huge profits coming into China.
 
I'm gunna ask a question now. How much money would the American tax payers have to pay, to make any measurable difference in the Earth's climate? Sounds silly right .....well apparently some very powerful people are attempting, right now, to answer that question by increasing the taxes on most of us for the very reason of "Reducing Climate Change".
 
Canuck from Kansas said:
Well I stand corrected - you answered my post, you did accuse someone, have no idea who, of guilt tripping and lecturing you, so yeah came off as a rant to me .... and you have no idea what my carbon footprint is, sheesh, talk about snark.

Have a good evening.

cheers
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I give as good as I get. Just the fact you have multiple children and moved across the country places you in high emitter status by comparison to many. Therefore I know enough. For all the concern you place on this topic I've yet to see you make suggestions or detail what it is you personally are doing to solve any of it. I'm amazed at those who choose to not live with earth and all they know about what those who do should be doing. I get you don't like me and that my brand of individualism is offensive to you. That's all fine but you and Bellevue Becky should at least be carpooling to the climate strike and possibly look inward and practice a bit of individuality and efficacy solving your own small part beyond feel good lip service.

And no I'm not really attacking you for any of your life choices. Having children is your biological purpose and introducing quality people to the planet is good. I'm merely trying to entreat you to the types of feelings others might have when questioned on individual choices in life because they don't fall lock step with the narrative of climate austerity or uprooting an entire societal way of life to fend off the inevitable without benchmarks and measurable goals.

I would also add that having children is a perspective changer as concerned for the future.
 
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