Random Questions

jaredoconnor

jaredoconnor

Peabrain Chub
Hello. I have random questions.
  1. If I’m out in the middle of a lake, with no obvious features, should I be casting in any particular direction? Ie. with, perpendicular to or against the current?
  2. I have been fishing an indicator rig, with a chironomid and a balanced leech. I have never hooked a fish with the chironomid. I’m wondering if the pattern or fly size is just no good. Can y’all tell me your most productive chironomid patterns and sizes?
  3. I don’t understand sinking line retrieves. I understand that you should count down to find your depth, but presumably the line will keep sinking with a slow retrieve or rise with a fast retrieve. If fish are only eating in a ~2ft depth window, this seems extremely error prone. Help? How do you keep it at a particular depth?
  4. Similar to the last question, I don’t understand trolling. How do you determine how fast to move, for a given length of line and sink rate, to keep the fly at the same depth?
Thanks!
 
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jaredoconnor said:
Hello. I have random questions.
  1. If I’m out in the middle of a lake, with no obvious features, should I be casting in any particular direction? Ie. with, perpendicular to or against the current?
  2. I have been fishing an indicator rig, with a chironomid and a balanced leech. I have never hooked a fish with the chironomid. I’m wondering if the pattern or fly size is just no good. Can y’all tell me your most productive chironomid patterns and sizes?
  3. I don’t understand sinking line retrieves. I understand that you should count down to find your depth, but presumably the line will keep sinking with a slow retrieve or rise with a fast retrieve. If fish are only eating in a ~2ft depth window, this seems extremely error prone. Help?
  4. Similar to the last question, I don’t understand trolling. How do you determine how fast to move, for a given length of line and sink rate?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
Most your experience is with moving water?

I tell you what my stratagy is with a lake.
1. If I have a fish finder on my boat, I will watch to see where the drop offs are. If I mark any fish, I will fish there. Trolling a sinking line near the bottom ( more on that later)

2. If I don't have a fish finder, it's hunt and peck. I generally don't go to the middle of the lake, but will troll between the shallow and deeper water searching for fish. Again, I tend to troll my sinking line near the bottom.

3. You can cast into shore and strip toward you. Or visa versa

That's my strategy and I'm sticking to it. Others may have different ideas on this. After all there are a 100 ways to skin a cat.

How I generally approach my use of sinking lines.

Sink rate will be determined in how deep of water I plan on fishing. If fishing shallow water, I'll use a clear intermediate. But anything deeper than 10 feet or more, I just break out the faster sink rates. Dependent on mostly my mood of the day.

What you may observe fishing deeper parts of the lake is the fish are holding at a certain level in the water column. So the my strategy here is let all my line out, let it settle near the bottom, moving backward as you let line out. Troll slow for a while then begin stripping the line back in. During the day you may experiment with various speeds of retrieves, see what work. What happens, is your fly will pass through the holding fish, That's when you get your strike.

Have a friend who will strip his line in quite fast, and always seems to draw a strike.

Chronamid patterns:

I hate fishing Chronamid patters really deep. Most I will fish them are 10-15 feet. Sometimes 20, but, I just don't like it.
As far as patterns go, and I'm no expert here, I try black, browns, reds, and greens. Sometime with a rib, some times not. Generally with some sort of bead head. But, there are those that get real techie on their chronies.... They're the experts. I will defer to them. I just don't do it enough.

Other more experienced lake fishermen may have more insight on this, and I too, look forward to hearing their comments.
 
though these seem tongue-in-cheek, they are meant to answer your questions as best I can.

1. Well, presuming you're in a lake with wind induced current, I'd cast downwind. It's easier. Or, I'd cast in the general direction of rising fish. For me, that's usually 42 degrees (northeast) ;) If there's much current in your lake, you're not in a lake.

2. Yes, the pattern or fly size is no good. Most guys with well stocked chironomid boxes have gazillions of them in very many colors and very many sizes. Try and find the stomach contents on the ones you catch with a leech, and see if you can match that. (You sometimes can see into the throat of the fish, or you can buy and use a stomach pump....careful!) Or just catch them on the leech until they start taking chironomids.

3. If your sinking line is hanging straight down, that's called a dangle by some, and you're not retrieving fast enough. If your sinking line and fly are on the surface, you're retrieving too fast. Everything else is trial and error. And in fishing, everything is prone to error. If you don't believe me, try tying a blood knot with fish rising in the middle of an ant hatch.

4. I figure that if I'm getting bumps or catching fish, I'm trolling about fast enough. If I'm not, well, maybe they just ain't biting. If I'm getting really tired of kicking, I slow down. My lake rig has no speed indicator, though it's hull speed seems about 2 knots. Way faster than my old round tube. I often add a twist or short jerky retrieve to increase speed and general attractiveness of the fly. Sometimes it works.

Someone I'm sure will be more helpful, and I suspect I'll learn something from them.
 
This is kind of tongue-in-cheek advise. But there’s some truth to it😁.
jaredoconnor said:
Hello. I have random questions.
  1. If I’m out in the middle of a lake, with no obvious features, should I be casting in any particular direction? Ie. with, perpendicular to or against the current?
Click to expand...
• Don’t fish in the middle of the lake. Fish the edges.
jaredoconnor said:
  1. I have been fishing an indicator rig, with a chironomid and a balanced leech. I have never hooked a fish with the chironomid. I’m wondering if the pattern or fly size is just no good. Can y’all tell me your most productive chironomid patterns and sizes?
Click to expand...
• Don’t bother with the chironomid. Leeches are better (obviously your catch rate proves that😁).
jaredoconnor said:
  1. I don’t understand sinking line retrieves. I understand that you should count down to find your depth, but presumably the line will keep sinking with a slow retrieve or rise with a fast retrieve. If fish are only eating in a ~2ft depth window, this seems extremely error prone. Help?
Click to expand...
•Just get a type 3 (leeches and buggers) and a type 6 (dragon nymphs and boobies) sinking lines. Put your time in and you’ll develop a pattern for the lakes you fish.
jaredoconnor said:
  1. Similar to the last question, I don’t understand trolling. How do you determine how fast to move, for a given length of line and sink rate?
Click to expand...
•Don’t troll. It’s boring and if you don’t do it, you don’t have to understand it😂.
 
Dry fly with the wind heading/drifting towards the shoreline.

Let it sit and when a lil chop/wind hits the water.....be ready.
 
Most of the bug life is near the lilly/weed line. Fish come up from deeper water to feed. Fish just beyond the weeds into the deep.

Vary your countdown depth until you find what level the fish are feeding at. I use a plumb-bob marked with footage to determine the depth I'm at and stop 3 ft above to allow for plant life. Then go from there.

Lately I use the "booby" technique with boobies, dragon nymphs and floating leech. It keeps you on the bottom without snagging or fouling your lure..

Try something else now and then. I get some action on a little size 14 wet hares ear stripped back 4 ft deep...
 
Jared, here's where I'd start.....throw away your trout gear. Lakes are meant for tiger muskies. Fish for those. rinse and repeat....and repeat....and repeat, then maybe catch one.

kidding of course, I'd listen to these other folks on this thread cause I can't really help you (I'd be taking my fish finder if I were targeting trout in lakes though).
 
"The Birds" will tell you if chironomid pupae will be reasonably productive. Start one foot off the bottom and work your way up. "No Birds" will tell you to fish chironomid larva close to the bottom. I fish a scud or a hare's ear nymph above the chironomid for weight.

Water temp tells me what full sinking lines to use. Below 50 and above 60 I fish a full sink Deep 6 with leeches, brahma buggers, small/large Dragon nymphs, and/or damsel nymphs. Temps between 50 to 60 I fish an intermediate III or IV. Vary your retrieves!!

Most Intermediate lines are Density Compensated (most belly eliminated). Rarely need a leader/tippet longer than 7-9ft with half that for Deep 6 dredgers.

"The Birds" can be anywhere on the lake!
 
A lot of good insights and info here. I would also suggest that you watch what others are doing, and where they are fishing.
It’s a long learning curve. Don’t be afraid to ask questions of others. I think you will find that most will help you on your journey. After all, we all had to start somewhere.
They mentioned Tim Lockhart’s books. Worthwhile reads for stillwater.
I just spent the weekend with Tim and after many years with him, I am still humbled. In fact, he pisses me off.... Not really. Well maybe, yes, really.
Good luck on your learning curve, it’s a fun ride.
A Burien guy.
 
Go to the article section of this web site and read Tim Lockhart;'s 4-part series "Playing the Stillwater
Game from Scratch". Think about what you have read and try to apply to your fishing. After a couple trips re-read the series.

While we fly anlgers are constantly looking for that magical fly that will solve our fish catching problems reality is that the fly choice may be the less important of the important variables that influence our success. In this case understanding lakes, how the fish behave and feed and your presentation of the fly are typically more important that the fly.

Curt
 
Lots of great info above. A couple of things not mentioned:

Look at the contour of the land above the water. May/should provide insight what is happening under the water surface.

Lilies grow to about 10' in water depth. Seeing how far they grow from the waters edge provides clues to contour of lake bottom.

Look online for Bathymetry maps of the lake(s) you are fishing. Many counties and State fishery sites have them available.

I am a firm believer in dragon nymphs. My go to when fishing lakes. Dragon nymphs are available year round due to their life cycle.

And, YES, to the birds showing where and when hatches are occurring
 
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Decide how you like to fish. If you like moving, fish sinking lines, big fly like a leech followed by something smaller like a hares ear. Throw it out, let it sink, then strip it back varying the speed. If you like sitting then use an indicator. Put a bloodworm a foot off the bottom, much more fun in 10 feet of water than in 20 feet of water. Or in a more shallow lake use a dry fly with a 3-4 foot dropper. Sometimes the wind will suck and you’ll have to move with a sinking line. Do watch the birds, they know where the bugs are. And a good depth or fish finder is helpful, though they really don’t mark fish well in water under 10 feet. And if you find a fish, keep fishing there. Never leave fish to go look for fish.
 
Something I should have mentioned is that I’ve been using a fish finder and fishing a local urban lake. Most of the fish have been out deep, where the lake is about 35ft deep. They mostly seem to hang around 20-15ft, but many seem to be as low as 25ft or as high as 10ft.

I have some further questions!

When fishing 20ft deep, can you just fish straight down or do the fish care that you are hovering above them? At what depth do they start to care about your presence?

I know this is a tough question, but how long would you wait before changing flies and/or depth, when you know fish are present? All my research says that depth matters most and fly pattern barely matters, particularly for stockers, so I’ve been rarely changing my flies.

Are there any good rules of thumb, regarding depth and what flies to use? For example, do chironomids generally stop working well at a certain depth? Do baitfish become more prevalent at certain depths?
 
troutpocket said:

You’re welcome ;)

But really, Tim’s methods will get you rolling on our local waters.
Click to expand...
Like others I'd recommend Tim's book. Similar to you Jared, I like moving water and euro, however Tim's book really helped me get more confident on the lakes.
 
jaredoconnor said:
Something I should have mentioned is that I’ve been using a fish finder and fishing a local urban lake. Most of the fish have been out deep, where the lake is about 35ft deep. They mostly seem to hang around 20-15ft, but many seem to be as low as 25ft or as high as 10ft.

I have some further questions!

When fishing 20ft deep, can you just fish straight down or do the fish care that you are hovering above them? At what depth do they start to care about your presence?

I know this is a tough question, but how long would you wait before changing flies and/or depth, when you know fish are present? All my research says that depth matters most and fly pattern barely matters, particularly for stockers, so I’ve been rarely changing my flies.

Are there any good rules of thumb, regarding depth and what flies to use? For example, do chironomids generally stop working well at a certain depth? Do baitfish become more prevalent at certain depths?
Click to expand...
What fish finder do you use and what are you fishing out of? They won't spook at 20 feet. You can see them react to your fly on your fish finder (Garmin) if you are fishing deep vertical, it's calm and it's over about 15 feet, and of course your finder is set correct.

Here is a video from BC where I see the fish come up to my fly before I even feel it strike...

 
jaredoconnor said:
Something I should have mentioned is that I’ve been using a fish finder and fishing a local urban lake. Most of the fish have been out deep, where the lake is about 35ft deep. They mostly seem to hang around 20-15ft, but many seem to be as low as 25ft or as high as 10ft.

I have some further questions!

When fishing 20ft deep, can you just fish straight down or do the fish care that you are hovering above them? At what depth do they start to care about your presence?

I know this is a tough question, but how long would you wait before changing flies and/or depth, when you know fish are present? All my research says that depth matters most and fly pattern barely matters, particularly for stockers, so I’ve been rarely changing my flies.

Are there any good rules of thumb, regarding depth and what flies to use? For example, do chironomids generally stop working well at a certain depth? Do baitfish become more prevalent at certain depths?
Click to expand...
Getting to know your Home Waters is a good thing. As @RCF suggests, learning the contours can be a key element to your success, your sonar unit will help tremendously.

@Billy already answered your question about hovering above them (Cool! I don't see what you see Billy but I know it works for you!).

I've fished with @Starman77 quite a few times over the years, he's mentored me on lake fishing. I don't think Rex believes the fly matters that much, it's more presentation (depth, retrieve speed, motion). He mostly fishes sinking lines (hover, intermediate and a range of full sinkers) and Rex seems to ALWAYS know at what depth his fly is (count down technique (he must have a built in metronome?)). Rex has a range of retrieve rates and styles that he shares in his excellent reports.

I have a @troutpocket rule: 15 minutes and no action, it's time to change (the fly, location, method of presenting the fly - something). My buddy Herb is the opposite of Rod - Herb can camp in a spot that he knows and be patient through times of no bites. He knows that his spot is magic at times and for him, patience is a virtue. Last spring he camped in a spot on a BC lake where the lake narrows and drops off, he loves that dropoff.

Fun thread, lots of opinions.
 
Instead of a strike indicator I like to "fish naked" as the Canadians refer to it in 20ft or deeper. That is, no indicator, long cast, countdown to bottom, and slow retrieve. Watch your leader/tippet roll down to the bottom; if it suddenly uncurls quicker than normal or stops, set the hook. The strikes while retrieving can be hostile as they are probably "hit and run" attacks.

Changing bugs can be somewhat simplified in the shoreline weeds. Scout around before you start fishing and dig through the muck. This is much like turning over rocks before you venture into a stream. Where I fish in the NCW, water temps play a role in changing bugs from spring scuds/chironomids, to callibaetis, to damsels, to dragons, to caddis.

I am not sold on the little fish icons that show up on my sonar and rarely take along any more. Depth and temps are vitally important and those can be learned after a few trips to a particular lake.

This much is for sure, if the surface temps are above 65 and there are no clouds in the sky, go home!
 
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