SFR Bremerton Otter Assault! (from Seattle Times)

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Believe it or not, I actually enjoy this debate. I realize that I am "swimming upstream" against long held beliefs, a massive disinformation effort, and generally the "feelings" that I probably hate Sea Otters, and that I have been brainwashed. But the truth is a powerful thing, and I have that on my side. Now some of you will recoil and retreat to your safe spaces, where they will assure you that Sea Otters offer nothing but wonderful things to the environment where they are "reintroduced" into. All I can offer is the truth. That might be outside of the safe space that some occupy.
 
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Jim in Anacortes said:
Believe it or not, I actually enjoy this debate. I realize that I am "swimming upstream" against long held beliefs, a massive disinformation effort, and generally the "feelings" that I probably hate Sea Otters, and that I have been brainwashed. But the truth is a powerful thing, and I have that on my side. Now some of you will recoil and retreat to your safe spaces, where they will assure that Sea Otters offer nothing but wonderful things to the environment where they are "reintroduced" into. All I can offer is the truth. That might be outside of the safe space that some occupy.
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I am finding this extremely entertaining. Thank you, @Jim in Anacortes for sticking to your guns in the face of, well, everyone.
 
Yes, why would a person that passionately wants to see our ecosystems thrive, be so adamant about the destructive nature of the Sea Otter? And so hostile to anyone claiming the benefits of reintroducing them into the environment. Perhaps, just perhaps that person has seen, over decades, what the truth actually is.......And has endured so many lies, meant for profit, regarding these destructive animals over decades.... Perhaps this is one voice simply trying to tell the truth, with absolutely no monetary gains to be had.....Just perhaps.
 
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Jim in Anacortes said:
Yes, why would a person that passionately wants to see our ecosystems thrive, be so adamant about the destructive nature of the Sea Otter? And so hostile to anyone claiming the benefits of reintroducing them into the environment. Perhaps, just perhaps that person has seen, over decades, what the truth actually is.......And has endured so many lies, meant for profit regarding these destructive animals over decades.... Perhaps this is one voice trying to simply tell the truth, with absolutely no monetary gains to be had.....Just perhaps.
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Who needs the Lorax when we have Jim in Anacortes? Unless...

Regarding Pismo Beach I found the Annual Status of the Fishery 2007 CADFG
"The recreational digger has probably been the largest contributing factor to losses incurred in the Pismo clam population."

"In 1949, an estimated 5,000 diggers per day harvested more than 2million clams over a period of 2.5 months on a stretch of beach that had just been reopened to digging after being closed for 20 years. During that time, an additional estimated 1 million undersized clams were left stranded on the surface and wasted on that same stretch of beach."

"Sea otters have been blamed for the loss of the recreational clam fishery at Pismo beach since the estimated sport catch declined form 343,000 clams in1978 to zero by 1983. In actuality, the loss of the fishery at Pismo Beach cannot be entirely attributed to sea otter predation. The Pismo clam population was being fully utilized by the recreational fishery prior to the sea otter’s arrival; the otters simply tipped the balance and caused the population to collapse."

"In southern California, the planting of large clams has paradoxically had a negative effect on local populations. News of a planting project eventually spreads, and the public turns out in mass to search for these clams. Not only are the planted clams immediately removed, but most of the native stock is also taken and the beach is left more barren than before the project. Past projects have shown that even if the clams are planted in Marine Protected Areas they are nevertheless not safe from poaching activities."

and from a letter to the New Times San Luis Obispo (obviously information from letters should be fact-checked; I'll have to dig deeper (ahem) since my areas of study don't include CA Native American midden contents)
"Chumash shell middens exhibit a glaring fact. Sea otters and clams were part of a balanced marine ecosystem in San Luis Bay for many thousands of years. It went out of balance when sea otters became a furry fashion fad hunted to near extinction. Apparently a new balance is underway."

Edit: formatting typos
Edit 2: more current information including status, threats, management, research opportunities, etc. on Pismo clams from WA DFW here
 
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adumcu280 Excellent!!!! People on the forum are learning. I like that. " The otters simply tipped the balance and caused the population to collapse"..what more needs to be said? These cute fury creatures are a force of nature. There is no denying that. They are destructive as hell! No other living thing benefits from their presence other than tourists and Great White Sharks. Prove me wrong!
 
Here's what I don't get, @Jim in Anacortes . I'm not a scientist, so this is just my layman's understanding.

Top level predators are a sign of a healthy ecosystem. For top level predators to thrive, the entire food chain that supports them has to be working well. So, a thriving population of top level predators, like the voracious sea otter, in an area means the ecosystem in that area is functioning well.

But you are saying that the presence of a thriving population of sea otters means the ecosystem in that area is being devastated.

How do I reconcile the two paragraphs above? Are your saying that sea otters thrive temporarily in a healthy ecosystem when they first arrive there, devastate it, and then move on, like locusts?
 
343,000 clams to ZERO ! Read that again ZERO That is "in a nut shell" what I am talking about ZERO let that number sink in. Do we all want these cute fury animals in our Washington State waters? Some might say oh yeah they are cute and fury,,,some might say OH HELL NO.
 
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Sea Otters are not "top level predators" they are simply weasels that eat every damn thing on the reef. One can pontificate about the historical nuances regarding the historical benefits of "top level predators" , but in the end it comes down to this... reintroduce Sea Otters and they will eat every damn thing on that reef. Now the guy with a college degree will lie to you and say that is not so, he is being paid to lie to you. I am not.
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
adumcu280 Excellent!!!! People on the forum are learning. I like that. " The otters simply tipped the balance and caused the population to collapse"..what more needs to be said? These cute fury creatures are a force of nature. There is no denying that. They are destructive as hell! No other living thing benefits from their presence other than tourists and Great White Sharks. Prove me wrong!
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If you're referring to humans as cute furry creatures that are a force of nature and destructive as hell then yeah! You're totally right! I mean, they're the species that did most of the destruction. The sea otters were just the last straw.

Regarding benefits of sea otters, here's the abstract from just one stupid little paper from some shitty journal called Science. I encourage you to read the entire paper and look at references.
Predator recovery often leads to ecosystem change that can trigger conflicts with more recently established human activities. In the eastern North Pacific, recovering sea otters are transforming coastal systems by reducing populations of benthic invertebrates and releasing kelp forests from grazing pressure. These changes threaten established shellfish fisheries and modify a variety of other ecosystem services. The diverse social and economic consequences of this trophic cascade are unknown, particularly across large regions. We developed and applied a trophic model to predict these impacts on four ecosystem services. Results suggest that sea otter presence yields 37% more total ecosystem biomass annually, increasing the value of finfish [+9.4 million Canadian dollars (CA$)], carbon sequestration (+2.2 million CA$), and ecotourism (+42.0 million CA$). To the extent that these benefits are realized, they will exceed the annual loss to invertebrate fisheries (−$7.3 million CA$). Recovery of keystone predators thus not only restores ecosystems but can also affect a range of social, economic, and ecological benefits for associated communities.
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
Sea Otters are not "top level predators" they are simply weasels that eat every damn thing on the reef. One can pontificate about the historical nuances regarding the historical benefits of "top level predators" , but in the end it comes down to this... reintroduce Sea Otters and they will eat every damn thing on that reef. Now the guy with a college degree will lie to you and say that is not so, he is being paid to lie to you. I am not.
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I strongly doubt anyone on this thread is being paid to lie to me. And as a general matter, I rely on scientists for science stuff.
 
Seriously, they want you to believe that reintroducing Sea Otters into a ecosystem will have amazing benefits... after all they are "top level predators"..... so where is the underwater footage proving that these creatures enhance the reef? I'll tell you where...nowhere,,absolutely nowhere. Now there are rare videos that show reefs full of life (Abalone, muscles urchins etc..) and after Otters are reintroduced ..parking lot ,,, full of empty shells.
 
Jim in Anacortes said:
G_Smolt This has nothing to do with those few Urchin Divers.. It has to do with the destruction that these animals bring to a healthy kelp bed.
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But earlier you were adamant that otter "reintroduction" would be devastating for commercial fishermen.
And as an FYI, I knew how many permits the CA dive fishery has, I was using that as a point to drive home your comfish fallacy.

Again, I would urge you to seek information beyond your bias and educate yourself on the role otters play in supporting a healthy kelp forest ecosystem. Look up "urchin barren" while you're at it.

You may be quite shocked to discover just how far off base some of your arguments are.

Have a nice day.
 
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