NFR Ukraine...Little Did I Know

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Old Man said:
What is Article 5??
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Every member of NATO agrees that it will consider an armed attack against any member state, whether in Europe or North America, as an attack against all 30 members of the organization.
 
The essence is that an attack on one member is an attack on all; thus, all come to the defense of the one - it has been invoked 1 time, after September 11, 2001.

Hope this helps

cheers
 
Old Man said:
What is Article 5??
Click to expand...

Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked.
 
Anti-war protests are rapidly growing in hundreds of cities across Russia. Russian troops are facing stronger resistance than anticipated. US will join the UK today in personally sanctioning Russia. Time for NATO to enact the SWIFT sanctrion, it will have Putins plutocrat gang screaming bloody murder, and will take a sledge hammer to Russia's economy.
 
Josh said:
Kudos to all of you who are making the effort to keep this thread civil and not respond with guns blazing to the few posts poking fun at various politicians.

Level heads make for an interesting discussion.
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you must not have seen the batch of posts I deleted :D

But really, it's going well. Thanks everyone!
 
RCF said:
Putin's yacht: Left Germany a little bit before the invasion of Ukraine...

www.insideedition.com

Inside Putin's $125M Yacht That Just Left the German Port Where It Was Being Refurbished

Experts say the vessel is sailing back home to Russia in a bid to prevent it from being seized by the West should Putin invade Ukraine.
www.insideedition.com www.insideedition.com
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Those in Putin's oligarch circle just live and act differently than anyone else. I was at a salmon lodge in Norway when the head of Gazprom and three of his lieutenants arrived to "fish". They flew into Trondheim from Moscow on a private jet and had Jaguar SUVs waiting for them to use for the week. They were accompanied by their "wives" all of whom were at least 30 years younger and seemed to know each other much better than they did their husbands. The ladies never did get into waders during the week though they all had new outfits hanging in the wader room. The men kept to themselves at one end of the table during dinner and if conversation with them was attempted they could not speak English. Each night after dark they went outside on a porch above the lodge rooms and proceeded to get hammered, laugh and shout well into the night, often in English when talking to the women. While they made it difficult to sleep with a window open there was one benefit to having them there. They would go out to their beats always with a guide to fish and after about an hour of whipping the water to a froth mutter "no fish here" and go back to the vehicle to be taken to the lodge or into town. We always checked which water was assigned to them and if they happened to draw a beat that given the flow was more favorable than the one we had it was just a matter of waiting a bit and proceeding to poach their water as soon as they got bored and left. It became standard practice for a few of us and proved to be quite a productive strategy during the week. Not being guided we could get away with it although the guides in camp seemed to know very well what we were doing.
 
Beyond the horrifying aspects of the invasion, how the military operations play out will be interesting. Throughout history, superior numbers and equipment have, time and time again, been defeated by superior will and determination. Based on the protests from the Russian public, it would seem likely that sentiment is shared by average Russian soldier. What's in it for them besides death and suffering? The average Ukrainian soldier however...
 
I admit to knowing very little about Ukraine and its people prior to this situation, but I tell ya what it's hard to watch this unfold and not come away with an incredible amount of respect for these people.

The stories of courage and defiance I have been reading are simply incredible. These are some absolutely amazing people who deserve so much better than this invasion.
 
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Even if Russia prevails in this phase, then comes the long counterinsurgency phase. Installing a puppet government in a large country doesn't guarantee a peaceful, docile populace and the estimated 190,00 Russian troops isn't anywhere close to covering the landmass of Ukraine in a way that controls the people.
 
jaredoconnor said:
My experience is the total opposite; the actual experts overwhelmingly agree on any major issue, but many choose to listen to self interested "news" anchors, politicians and internet randoms instead.
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Well I grew up in the 80s and have studied the major events of the 1900s Well enough to realize that experts are often just people who have overthought issues so that they became so convinced they are right that they are closed minded to any other ideas and when this mentality reaches policy makers invariably it becomes a disaster. In fact this happened so much that I would say it defined that century.
Maybe I am just a product of a century full of expert failures.
It was also a century of great innovation but innovation based on solid sciences. Not of policies based on theory, which is the context of this discussion.
 
Ukraine has had several" Alamo" moments in all this. The one getting the most coverage is called Snake Island or Snake Island 13, after the 13 soldiers on the island.

This was caught as a radio broadcast, presumably on International channel 16. Basically, a Russian Destroyer radioed the island and demanded that those stationed there surrender or get bombed into oblivion... typical of Ukranians, their answer was "Go F**** yourself" , with the subsequent Russian attack killing all 13.
www.navytimes.com

Ukrainians trapped on Snake Island to the Russians demanding their surrender: ‘go fuck yourself.’

The border guards manning the small island were later killed, according to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
www.navytimes.com www.navytimes.com

There are other sources. Langley Outdoors Academy on YouTube has the actual radio calls., you'll just have to sit through the rest of the show.
 
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I read 4 times in today's paper that Putin described Ukraine as an ". . . inalienable part of our own history, culture, and spiritual space." Of course I think that is just cover for wanting Ukraine directly under his thumb and control and access and ownership of all of Ukraine's many and varied resources. I don't think Putin will stop until he has what he wants. And even though NATO outnumbers Russia 3:1, I'm very skeptical that they will step up and send Russia packing from Ukraine. In part because that probably can't be done without directly counter-invading Russia to some degree. And if Putin seems irrational already, I think that would truly set him off his rocker and maybe start WWIII.

Another thought that I've been pondering is the map of Europe. Over time the boundary lines have literally been all over the place. Practically every square inch of land has been part of several different nations over the last 800 years or so. No place has been static as one particular nation over time. So is Ukraine culturally and even genetically connected to Russia and vice versa? Hell, I don't know, but I suppose they are, at least in part.
 
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