NFR Ukraine...Little Did I Know

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Dustin Chromers said:
Agree to disagree with all due respect. The announcement made Putin absolutely secure that military force was off the table.
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Are you advocating for a military response ?

Sanctions typically come before military actions, as a deterrent approach. They don't always work of course, and the effects fall more on the citizenry at times, but with a brutal dictator who will kill his own citizens to stay in power and as you pointed out doesn't play by any rules, without a military response what is left is economic, cyber, bankingand trade responses.

It's disingenuous to assume a military response was ever on the table here I think.
I doubt Putin ever seriously considered that NATO or the US was going to send troops to fight a ground war in Ukraine was a possibility. I doubt NATO was considering sending troops to defend a non NATO member, and I doubt seriously the US was going to be mobilizing ground troops to send to Ukraine.

Did you think that was going to happen?
 
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Just my opinion at this moment, even the harshest sanctions aren't going to do a bit of good.
That said we should not allow any country to do any business with Russia.
1. tell the Germans to stop taking Russian natural gas or do no business with them
2. tell the Chinese that do business with Russia and we will consider our debt to them paid in full
3. cut off any aid that we give to Pakistan as they have already chosen their side

the people who are going to suffer the most are the Russian people and the Ukrainian's of course.

One thing we really need to do is fly over Ukraine with f-35's. we need to know if the SA 400 can detect them.. my guess is no.
 
Mossback said:
Are you advocating for a military response ?

Sanctions typically come before military actions, as a deterrent approach. They don't always work of course, and the effects fall more on the citizenry at times, but with a brutal dictator who will kill his own citizens to stay in power and as you pointed out doesn't play by any rules, without a military response what is left is economic, cyber, bankingand trade responses.

It's disingenuous to assume a military response was ever on the table here I think.
I doubt Putin ever seriously considered that NATO or the US was going to send troops to fight a ground war in Ukraine was a possibility. I doubt NATO was considering sending troops to defend a non NATO member, and I doubt seriously the US was going to be mobilizing ground troops to send to Ukraine.

Did you think that was going to happen?
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I am in no way shape or form advocating for a military response. I'm just not advocating for handing the other side our playbook, nothing more. Yes the playbook is predictable as well as the result but still.
 
GAT said:
It appears Putin has no desire to give up his KGB ideals. From what I've read, he wants Russia to become the USSR again. So all this is a very bad sign. WWII started by the invasion of one country by a larger power and did not stop there.

Sure, why not. Pandemic and now a war in Europe.
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As I have said many times before…the Cold War NEVER ended!
 
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Merle said:
I have had the same initial gut reaction, and have been trying to temper it as I watch things unfold on the news.

As an American, knowing have the most superior military in the world, it's really hard to not want to step in and squash things when you see a bully in action. Especially after reading up on the history of the USSR and what was done to the Ukrainian people during the Holodomor. But yeah when the bully is unhinged and has access to nukes then the smart play is often not to follow initial gut reactions. Kind of like not stepping out of your car to engage with a crazy road rager, even though you'd love to put him in his place.

Still, when I saw the long line of Russian tanks rolling down that two lane highway in eastern Ukraine, on a very visceral level I thought about how sweet it would be to see a squadron of A-10 Warthogs just light them up.



andy
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We may have the best military but we dont use it, we spend billions, then do world police, pay with our blood and treasure, then get nothing back. The country we help or liberate should pay us back with mineral rights or become a territory. We havent 'won' since ww2, I can think of a recent example. No follow through.
kurtz_profile11.jpg
 
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FontinalisFin said:
Predators sense and pray on weakness. Putin knows we are weak right now and probably won't do anything about the invasion besides 'talk and sanctions.' He's been planning this a long time, stockpiling cash reserves, just waiting for the right moment on the world stage. Dictators are feeling their oats. Taiwan is next.
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^^^THIS^^^
I’ll add…these type of people only know one thing and will only surrender with the same…and that is a pop in the eye.
 
FontinalisFin said:
The country we help or liberate should pay us back with mineral rights or become a territory.
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Well they're not really liberated if they have to give up their sovereignty to become a US territory, now are they ?
;)
LOL
 
Mossback said:
Well they're not really liberated if they have to give up their sovereignty to become a US territory, now are they ?
;)
LOL
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Thats how wars used to work, thats Putin's idea of war, he's going to gain something, we gain nothing.
 
FontinalisFin said:
We may have the best military but we dont use it, we spend billions, then do world police, pay with our blood and treasure, then get nothing back. The country we help or liberate should pay us back with mineral rights or become a territory.
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😐

You sound like you are oblivious to all the bad shit the US has done, to secure foreign resources.

Remember when the US used WMD claims, to justify entering Iraq? It's basically the same playbook as what Russia is doing right now.

Like I said earlier in the thread, the US and many of its allies are guilty of this exact crap. The US has never taken military action, without something to gain. To believe otherwise is to believe the propaganda.
 
jaredoconnor said:
😐

You sound like you are oblivious to all the bad shit the US has done, to secure foreign resources.

Remember when the US used WMD claims, to justify entering Iraq? It's basically the same playbook as what Russia is doing right now.

Like I said earlier in the thread, the US and many of its allies are guilty of this exact crap. The US has never taken military action, without something to gain. To believe otherwise is to believe the propaganda.
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No I'm not, Iraq was stupid and unjustified, my perspective is, if we went in, make it united states of iraq. Yes in all these conflicts we prospered in various ways, on the corporate level.
 
jaredoconnor said:
😐

You sound like you are oblivious to all the bad shit the US has done, to secure foreign resources.

Remember when the US used WMD claims, to justify entering Iraq? It's basically the same playbook as what Russia is doing right now.

Like I said earlier in the thread, the US and many of its allies are guilty of this exact crap. The US has never taken military action, without something to gain. To believe otherwise is to believe the propaganda.
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except that In Iraq, Iran and even Vietnam we were going in against actual bad guys.. The problem with Vietnam is that the government in the south was pretty bad too.. and in Iraq we put the bad guy there to begin with to go against a worse guy in Iran. Afganistan? tough one my guy feeling is that we left before we finished the job.
In Russia's case they are the bad guys. That's just the truth.

In terms of WMD's you're right it was a bit of a red Herring.. not unlike The Gulf of Tonkin incident.
 
kinda interesting America can " invade a country with the best of intentions for the people of that country but what those countries usually want the most is to not be invaded,
 
FontinalisFin said:
Thats how wars used to work, thats Putin's idea of war, he's going to gain something, we gain nothing.
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So you're advocating US troops go and defend Ukraine against the Russians, and then we get their mineral resources and the become a US territory, is that what you're saying here ?
Or are you just, ya know, blowing smoke here...

Lol

Liberation and becoming a territory of another country are not the same thing, you know this, right ?
Self determination, liberty and all that...or are you saying the US should be more like Putin ?
 
I'm haven't been advocating boots on the ground in Ukraine. I'm saying pay us back if you need or want our help. Looking at our past since Vietnam we lose. No more US blood for world policing if its not a direct threat to the US, or can handle it from a distance. How much Iraqi oil or Afghanistan rare earth minerals are we getting right now?
 
We have a NATO alliance that requires us to provide military support of an invasion of a NATO country.
We have no such alliance with the Ukraine, and there was never any possibiity that the US would alone enter into a war on it's soil as that would create a direct armed conflict with Russia.
Regarding the sanctions - Putin is betting the NATO countries won't support the most severe sanctions as those would damage their own economies as well, and the next week to two weeks will shape that one way or the other. Meanwhile, The UK has already imposed severe sanctions, Germany has yet to do so due to it's dependence on Russian oil and natural gas, while Italy has declared it will not support stopping luxury exports to the Russian elite...now there's conviction.

The one global tool waiting for more support to implement is denying Russia access to SWIFT, which is the Belguim based monetary transfer system that enables financial instituions around the world to move money. That sanction would have a severe impact on Russia's financial institutions and industries.
 
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