NFR Ukraine...Little Did I Know

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Canuck from Kansas said:
Hate the thought that I might be spreading "fake" or unverified news, but several lower tier news outlets (which I will not site but are easily found - search Putin sacks generals) are reporting that heads are starting to role in Russia (8 generals), but no major sources are yet reporting it, let's hope it's true, once they feel they might be next, could there be revolt? One can only hope.
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Two generals have already been killed in action…
 
 
clarkman said:
Well, we did the same type of thing to rationalize invading Iraq the second time & galvanize the American people behind that action.
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True. That and or false claims about their "nucular" program. It was clear to anyone really paying attention that we were lying before the invasion even happened. Remember Valerie Plame? I'm not excusing Putin, and hope to read of his unfortunate demise any day now, but the US has its own share of lying weaselbastards.
 
clarkman said:
Well, we did the same type of thing to rationalize invading Iraq the second time & galvanize the American people behind that action.
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I think having bad intelligence on a facility you are not allowed into is different than claims about facilities the world has been inspecting and decommissioning for more than 25 years. The last time Putin closed the gas valve the former Soviet states had to restart nuclear reactors, they sought western help in safe fuel...this is not a valid comparison. Iraq isolated themselves and created distrust.
 
longputt said:
I think having bad intelligence on a facility you are not allowed into is different than claims about facilities the world has been inspecting and decommissioning for more than 25 years. The last time Putin closed the gas valve the former Soviet states had to restart nuclear reactors, they sought western help in safe fuel...this is not a valid comparison. Iraq isolated themselves and created distrust.
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I really do not want to revisit this, but we had active on the ground, real-time intelligence prior to the invasion that no WMD were being found, including sites that US intelligence had identified - Hans Blix (UNSCOM) and Mohamed ElBaradei (IAEA) reported to the UN in February 2003, 1 month prior to the invasion that they were not finding any WMD:

iraq.unitednations1

HBx/Draft 3

nsarchive2.gwu.edu

The Status of Nuclear Inspections in Iraq: 14 February 2003 Update

nsarchive2.gwu.edu

We could have let the inspections continue, but with the lack of WMD being found, and after failing to secure U.N. authorization to use force to disarm Iraq, President Bush gave Saddam 48 hours to step down or face war in a speech on 17 March 2003.

www.cbsnews.com

Weapons Inspectors Leave Iraq

Along With All Other U.N. Personnel, By Orders Of Kofi Annan
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

Unfortunately, we have our own credibility issues, these things come back to bite.
 
let's try to get this back on track. That was merely my observation. Whether or not it's Honeycrisp apples to Honeycrisp apples is irrelevant...but at the very least, it's Golden Delicious to Gala.

point being, our hands aren't exactly free of blood either.

try not to take this as defending what Putin is doing as IMO, it's indefensible.

edit: not am I comparing a dictator (Saddam) to Zelenskyy. Simply the actions are similar (note: the singular actions, not the long game necessarily). People need to stop reading so much into things searching for something that was never said nor intended. carry on.
 
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Canuck from Kansas said:
I really do not want to revisit this, but we had active on the ground, real-time intelligence prior to the invasion that no WMD were being found, including sites that US intelligence had identified - Hans Blix (UNSCOM) and Mohamed ElBaradei (IAEA) reported to the UN in February 2003, 1 month prior to the invasion that they were not finding any WMD:

iraq.unitednations1

HBx/Draft 3

nsarchive2.gwu.edu

The Status of Nuclear Inspections in Iraq: 14 February 2003 Update

nsarchive2.gwu.edu

We could have let the inspections continue, but with the lack of WMD being found, and after failing to secure U.N. authorization to use force to disarm Iraq, President Bush gave Saddam 48 hours to step down or face war in a speech on 17 March 2003.

www.cbsnews.com

Weapons Inspectors Leave Iraq

Along With All Other U.N. Personnel, By Orders Of Kofi Annan
www.cbsnews.com www.cbsnews.com

Unfortunately, we have our own credibility issues, these things come back to bite.
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I am not trying to condone anything you point out, what I'm saying is the former Soviet states were suddenly bankrupt and had very dangerous facilities they could not afford to manage or maintain. They actively sought help from the west to manage or decommission these facilities, they could have sold these facilities and products to bad actors. This cannot be compared to the situation in Iraq.
 
longputt said:
I am not trying to condone anything you point out, what I'm saying is the former Soviet states were suddenly bankrupt and had very dangerous facilities they could not afford to manage or maintain. They actively sought help from the west to manage or decommission these facilities, they could have sold these facilities and products to bad actors. This cannot be compared to the situation in Iraq.
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Don't disagree with that, we just shouldn't sluff off Iraq as acting on bad intelligence.
 
Buried in the lower layers of Canucks share in #1164, was another article regarding the heavy use of stand off weapons against civillian targets. Seems that the attacking ground forces aren't as efficient in getting the results that Putin wants, so he's stepped up the indiscriminate use of rockets and bomber launched cruise missiles.
This can only get worse.
 
DimeBrite said:
Putin is a mafia boss. By wrecking Ukraine he is making an example of them for the other former Soviet satellite states. He is punishing the West by sending 5 million plus refugees into NATO countries. Later, he will try out an energy embargo. His goal is to depopulate eastern Ukraine, annex it, and repopulate with Russians. He wants the remainder of Ukraine to be a smoldering ruin that lacks EU membership and NATO protection. In his mind, this will achieve a multi-polar world order with Russia one of the major powers. The best solution is for Ukraine to counter attack when the Russian military is drained (and they are resupplied) to push the Russian land forces out. Western sanctions should be permanent until all invading Russians are out of Ukraine.
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Then push on to Moscow.
There is no way NATO can allow this chapter of history to close with Putin or his cronies in control of Moscow. Without Russian regime change NATO is a complete failure.
 




 
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