NFR Ukraine...Little Did I Know

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RCF said:
I was wondering about use of drones in Ukraine. This helps me understand more:

www.businessinsider.com

Ukraine's army is using a nimble 'game-changing' drone called The Punisher that has completed scores of successful missions against the Russians, say reports

Developed by Ukrainian veterans, say reports, the light drones, invisible to radar, carries a 3kg of explosives to strike the Russian forces.
www.businessinsider.com www.businessinsider.com

A couple of captures from other sources:

"In better times, Ukrainian drone enthusiasts flew their gadgets into the sky to photograph weddings or race drones for fun. Now some are risking their lives by forming a volunteer drone force to help their country repel the Russian invasion."

"Ukraine's military has begun enlisting civilian drone pilots to help with surveillance in the effort to repel Russia's invasion. Armed forces leaders have asked enthusiasts to donate aircraft and, if they are experienced flyers, to volunteer as pilots. "
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They also have a bunch of these drones that are proving effective.
 
DimeBrite said:
The New Yorker article works him over pretty good.
Mearsheimer is upsetting to some, because he is an advocate of the U.S. making long-term strategic foreign policy decisions based on a "Great Powers" philosophy. Anyway, his viewpoint is not popular now that Putin reactivated a shooting war in Ukraine.
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I like to welcome all educated opinions into my field of view. Even the unpopular ones. Thanks for sharing that lecture.
 
Ohhh. And you China??
For every day you refuse to condemn this Russian Aggression the US Treasury will charge you 1 trillion dollars which will be applied to our debt. Also every time your planes threaten Taiwan's airspace and additional 30 trillion will be subtracted from what we owe you. Per offense. Aka per plane. Send a sortie of 20 planes 600 trillion.
 
Rob Allen said:
Ohhh. And you China??
For every day you refuse to condemn this Russian Aggression the US Treasury will charge you 1 trillion dollars which will be applied to our debt. Also every time your planes threaten Taiwan's airspace and additional 30 trillion will be subtracted from what we owe you. Per offense. Aka per plane. Send a sortie of 20 planes 600 trillion.
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My parents told me: "Only make credible threats." The problem is that your messages to Russia and China are empty words unless we are willing to go to war to enforce those threats. I don't think we want to go to war with Russia and China. That would be bad, in my opinion. War is bad. Now if Putin just died, I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
 
Zak said:
My parents told me: "Only make credible threats." The problem is that your messages to Russia and China are empty words unless we are willing to go to war to enforce those threats. I don't think we want to go to war with Russia and China. That would be bad, in my opinion. War is bad. Now if Putin just died, I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
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War is bad... War against tyrants? Is our responsibility.
 
Zak said:
My parents told me: "Only make credible threats." The problem is that your messages to Russia and China are empty words unless we are willing to go to war to enforce those threats. I don't think we want to go to war with Russia and China. That would be bad, in my opinion. War is bad. Now if Putin just died, I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.
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I've always preferred promises to be kept than idle threats to be not followed through on.
 
DimeBrite said:


I watched this lecture a few years ago, and it is really interesting to watch again now. The perspective Mearsheimer presents is a cold calculus that ignores the aspirations of Ukrainians to be independent. Still, it helps to understand why this war is happening. Putin's goal now is to wreck Ukraine and annex the strategic pieces he wants for Russia. Start video at 2:00
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That is really informative - ties together what I already (thought I) knew with additional considerations and context and a clear clear message. It is eerie that this was made in 2015 -- could have been made last week describing the current situation. Changed my perspective ... the only off-ramp for Putin that avoids the many versions of worst case scenario may be for Ukraine to surrender, promise to never join NATO ... and get to keep its statehood. Unfortunately, that off ramp may have already been passed.

I had previously thought about his scenario of "what if XYZ hostile country set up a military alliance to counter the US right at our border". Maybe Putin's paranoia isn't entirely due to madness. he's still evil as fvck tho.
 
See the pictures of women and children deliberately targeted and killed while trying to evacuate besieged cities from supposed 'safe passage' routes and it just sickens me. At this point I have lost all empathy for the Russian people and what they are about to go through.
The vast majority of Russians have always liked a strongman who proclaims their greatness and entitlement, and stood back quietly when Putin invaded three countries, murdering it's civilians. This time will the Russian people will pay a heavy price for years to come, and will deserve every moment of it.
 
wanderingrichard said:
One of the more, ummm, shocking?, revealing , things was catching the video of the Russians using Chechens as shock troops to take an airfield.

As I recall, Putin tried to eliminate the whole of Chechnya when they had a resistance effort going on. Now, years later, like the Borg they've been assimilated into the Russian battle plans again.
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Ukraine may well be an entirely different matter in terms of attempted assimilation, since its population is roughly 40 times greater than Chechnya's. Much heavier lift.
 
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SurfnFish said:
See the pictures of women and children deliberately targeted and killed while trying to evacuate besieged cities from supposed 'safe passage' routes and it just sickens me. At this point I have lost all empathy for the Russian people and what they are about to go through.
The vast majority of Russians have always liked a strongman who proclaims their greatness and entitlement, and stood back quietly when Putin invaded three countries, murdering it's civilians. This time will the Russian people will pay a heavy price for years to come, and will deserve every moment of it.
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It's not the Russian people it's the leadership. Many Russian people are against this operation. I do have a great deal of sympathy for both the Ukraine people and Russian people that will suffer the consequence of Putin's actions. You don't have the luxury of objection there like you do here. Even if you did it would not net a result. I often object to United States foreign policy decisions and it does little good. Should I deserve to suffer if say our own hunt for weapons of mass destruction was met with greater Iraqi leverage and consequence on Americans? Your comment is about as tone deaf as they come. Most Russians like us are trying to earn a living and stay the hell out of the way of a corrupt government which is a hundred fold more police state than here. It's easy to hate a population of people or a political side of the aisle. It's hard to find compassion for pawns in a real life game of chess with repercussions in blood and carnage.
 
Dustin Chromers said:
It's not the Russian people it's the leadership. Many Russian people are against this operation. I do have a great deal of sympathy for both the Ukraine people and Russian people that will suffer the consequence of Putin's actions. You don't have the luxury of objection there like you do here. Even if you did it would not net a result. I often object to United States foreign policy decisions and it does little good. Should I deserve to suffer if say our own hunt for weapons of mass destruction was met with greater Iraqi leverage and consequence on Americans? Your comment is about as tone deaf as they come. Most Russians like us are trying to earn a living and stay the hell out of the way of a corrupt government which is a hundred fold more police state than here. It's easy to hate a population of people or a political side of the aisle. It's hard to find compassion for pawns in a real life game of chess with repercussions in blood and carnage.
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A thumbs up with a heart attached. I in my naiviete’ in the early 90’s that perspective can be clouded by so many things if you let it rule you. I spent a lot of time back then with Russians and Far easterners in their homes and at work and my eyes were opened beyond the close walls of a Cold War hangover.
 
Capt Insano Emeritis said:
A thumbs up with a heart attached. I in my naiviete’ in the early 90’s that perspective can be clouded by so many things if you let it rule you. I spent a lot of time back then with Russians and Far easterners in their homes and at work and my eyes were opened beyond the close walls of a Cold War hangover.
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I'm of the same or similar generation. I was taught via politicians and movies like Red Dawn and Rocky III to hate Russians. I can only imagine the propaganda they were exposed to about me. It's the age old trick of leadership to stoke fear and derision towards one's "enemies". It clearly works very effectively. Meanwhile that enemy is allot like you with the same hopes and dreams but brought up on the bullshit propaganda of the other side.
 
I've been staying out of this because- what do I know, and it's not like my opinion would make any difference anyway. I will say that this is a refreshingly respectful and informative discussion, and I appreciate the variety of viewpoints. I too would love to see us go in there gunz 'a blazin and make things right, and put China in its place while we're at it, but.... nukes.

Perhaps the best case scenario now, as it seems that in the long run Ukraine cannot withstand Putin's willingness to sacrifice civilians and his own forces if necessary, is that he is faced with the mother of all insurgencies and that things suck So Bad for Russian citizenry and his oligarch pals that he is either quietly but forcefully asked to retire, or happens to unfortunately come to a bad end. I mean, people fall out of fifth floor windows sometimes; it happens.

I think this will harden and probably expand NATO and not work out well for Mother Russia in the long term. Meanwhile; suffering on a massive scale. I'm thankful we have reasonable [edit: rational] leadership in the US currently.
 
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After reading those well informed analyses I don't see any realistic option short of standing up to Putin. Exactly what that should look like, I'm not so sure of. I think the civilized world should intensify its interpretation that Putin is a mad man and the clear and present danger to civilization. How to send that message? Embrace Finland and Sweden into NATO yesterday because Putin is a danger to every neighboring European nation that is militarily weaker than Russia. Without Ukraine joining NATO at this time, it's time to ramp things up and make clear to Putin that Russian invasions are not tolerated in the civilized world. NATO countries, other than the US, could send massive amounts of conventional weaponry, including boots on the ground, and push Russia out. They have that much military strength and capability. Because direct US participation would be seen and interpreted as a major US - Russia super power nuclear confrontation, keep US out in terms of boots on the ground, but send massive conventional weaponry since we are part of NATO. The "golden bridge of retreat" for Putin would be the immediate end of sanctions upon Russian withdrawal and commencement of reparations to Uknraine. Putin has already alluded to nuclear attack, so it's already on the table. Either the world accepts that Russia can do whatever it wants whenever it wants and wherever it wants, or the civilized world has no choice but to call Putin's bluff. JFK, were he here today, would advise that we have been pushed into the corner of accepting tyranny or asserting freedom and democracy. Or maybe I should just start drinking early today.
 
Dustin Chromers said:
It's not the Russian people it's the leadership. Many Russian people are against this operation. I do have a great deal of sympathy for both the Ukraine people and Russian people that will suffer the consequence of Putin's actions. You don't have the luxury of objection there like you do here. Even if you did it would not net a result. I often object to United States foreign policy decisions and it does little good. Should I deserve to suffer if say our own hunt for weapons of mass destruction was met with greater Iraqi leverage and consequence on Americans? Your comment is about as tone deaf as they come. Most Russians like us are trying to earn a living and stay the hell out of the way of a corrupt government which is a hundred fold more police state than here. It's easy to hate a population of people or a political side of the aisle. It's hard to find compassion for pawns in a real life game of chess with repercussions in blood and carnage.
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The Russian people are vast, their ruling class small. What they lack is the will to defy the King they elected. They knew exactly who they were electing, back when they actually had elections, a former KGB officer who when seeking higher office gave countless speeches talking about the need for Russia to reclaim their greatness by reclaiming their former USSR territories. They watched Russia invade and seize three different countries before Ukraine, without feeling any personal repercussions while innocents were being slaughtered. Now they are feeling an economic squeeze while innocents are slaughtered.
Save for your pity for the innocent being slaughtered, not those who are enabling it by their silence.
 
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