Regulation change for fly only water rivers only

Denwor54

Denwor54

Life of the Party
I was surprised how this year has reduced opportunities for gamefish fisheries on my local PS rivers. I proposed a change to allow us to fish and reduce impacts on chinook. I suggested floating line only and no weighted flies fly size restricted to 6 and under. No indicators and no beads or egg imitations, no sinking lines during summer fisheries. If you are fishing for salmon on closed rivers and are recieve a ticket you lose your gear. We have to change so we can fish our rivers and this has been successful on Atlantic rivers on the east coast and Canadian rivers. I talked today with Wdfw and they seemed open to this and feel this may work. My focus is mainly to give us an opportunity to fish cutthroat and steelhead which has been removed in the last few years. It was suggested that we as a community get involved with the North of Falcon decision making. We tend to sit on our hands and there are very few that give input and attend meetings. I know Curt and Salmo g have been involved and I think it’s time to get of our ass and let the wdfw decision makers know our concerns. I’m guilty of not taking the time to speak up for our community and that will change. We have some quality fisheries in our back yard and I think it’s time to do something. And it’s time for us to reduce our impacts and stop using the just catch and release fishing as an excuse for poaching. Tight lines
 
That horse has been beaten to death and thanks to the fly-fishing community apathy and the community condoning the practice of closed season catch and release those types of closures have been institutionalized. Recapturing those lost fisheries or even preventing additional closures (in the salt?) will be a steep uphill battle.

If you are going to attempt regulation changes, I suggest that consideration, be giving to existing approaches, for example on the Skagit in non-salmon fisheries anglers are required to fish under selective gear rules with the added provision that anglers may not use hooks that measure more than 1/2" from point to shank. On fly waters just eliminating weighted flies (returning to what fly only regulations were prior to the early 1980s) would get us most of the way to the regulations needed to protect the species of concern and at the same time providing WDFW enforcement officers with tools to insure there is compliance.

Curt
 
I don't think the WDFW cares at all but I think there will be a significant decline in license applications and renewals over time due to the increasing lack of fishing opportunity in WA. At this point, I get far more opportunity and enjoyment fishing around the states bordering this state.
 
Thanks for your reply Smalma, after talking with the department yesterday he seemed to like my suggestions. He felt like it would work as long as they a directed to do everything we can to note encounter chinook. With the advancement in fly equipment we have to change how we approach these fisheries. I plan on getting examples of regulations from the east coast Atlantic salmon fisheries to use as a template and present these to the department. I also reminded them that they make in season adjustments to so many fisheries but the just close stuff and forget about gamefish opportunities. I think this is because we don’t speak up and I feel it’s time and from talking with the gentleman yesterday it is clear this is the case. I don’t feel this is a lost cause and after the conversation yesterday I’m optimistic that there can be a resolution. My biggest concern is the flyfishing community willing to change this I’m just C@R and I’m above the law.
 
ChrisC said:
I don't think the WDFW cares at all but I think there will be a significant decline in license applications and renewals over time due to the increasing lack of fishing opportunity in WA. At this point, I get far more opportunity and enjoyment fishing around the states bordering this state.
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We've had this discussion on here before. Some high-level folks don't want the hook and bullet crowd to have any influence, they want the eventual end of consumptive use and some sort of idealized human/nature glass wall separation. You can go out in nature and look at things (and pay multiple fees to get there!), but don't touch anything.

The decrease in license revenue due to lack of opportunity is not a bug, it's a feature. They will make it up many other places.
 
WW is absolutely correct, if you don't try the results will be nothing.

However, unlike the WW lead Occupy Skagit effort where he was able to put together a small handful of helpers who collectively brought a passion for the fishery, an understanding of the resource and its management, were savvy enough to understand both the agency policies and how to best influence potential changes and yet were bullhead enough to stick will the effort (6 years) to bring it home I just don't see that kind passion and/or willingness to invest the time by those potentially affected to invest that kind of effort to insure general game fish opportunities. In fact, I suspect that given the current state of affair of steelhead that an Occupy Skagit effort would not be successful today.

Instead have resigned myself that I will have to be satisfied with more than 60 years of wonderful fishing memories on North Sound rivers for a variety of game fish and over the last few decades been treated unbelievable fishing and more sea-run cutthroat and bull trout to hand than any human should reasonably expect. A sad state of affairs but reality none the less.

Curt
 
I'll say it once more. Even the most deadly (literally) forms of catch and release sport fishing have absolutely zero impact on the survival of ant species anywhere.
As a result I am opposed to any kinds of closures or new regulations that limit the behavior of anglers.
 
One issue I see WDFW consistently raise against C&R seasons is the lack of enforcement officers available to monitor those fisheries. It's a valid issue to raise if you're going to allow angling over ESA stocks under the premise of restrictive gear/tactics/retention.

Sometimes I wonder about a non-consumptive license fee, where anglers who desire to fish year round could purchase the license, possibly attend a class on ethical C&R and then fish using the best available practices for low mortality. The money from the license/classes goes to enforcement officers being present over ESA stock rivers year round.

I think it's a pipe dream but offering the department money usually perks their ears.
 
Pink Nighty said:
One issue I see WDFW consistently raise against C&R seasons is the lack of enforcement officers available to monitor those fisheries. It's a valid issue to raise if you're going to allow angling over ESA stocks under the premise of restrictive gear/tactics/retention.

Sometimes I wonder about a non-consumptive license fee, where anglers who desire to fish year round could purchase the license, possibly attend a class on ethical C&R and then fish using the best available practices for low mortality. The money from the license/classes goes to enforcement officers being present over ESA stock rivers year round.

I think it's a pipe dream but offering the department money usually perks their ears.
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WDFW’s claim about the lack of enforcement officers sounds like a red herring as there should be money left over from all the hatchery programs that have been shut down over the past few years.
 
Pink Nighty said:
One issue I see WDFW consistently raise against C&R seasons is the lack of enforcement officers available to monitor those fisheries. It's a valid issue to raise if you're going to allow angling over ESA stocks under the premise of restrictive gear/tactics/retention.

Sometimes I wonder about a non-consumptive license fee, where anglers who desire to fish year round could purchase the license, possibly attend a class on ethical C&R and then fish using the best available practices for low mortality. The money from the license/classes goes to enforcement officers being present over ESA stock rivers year round.

I think it's a pipe dream but offering the department money usually perks their ears.
Click to expand...

Catch and release is already ethical. It doesn't need any clarification about how to do it to make it more ethically.
 
Denwor54 said:
I was surprised how this year has reduced opportunities for gamefish fisheries on my local PS rivers. I proposed a change to allow us to fish and reduce impacts on chinook. I suggested floating line only and no weighted flies fly size restricted to 6 and under. No indicators and no beads or egg imitations, no sinking lines during summer fisheries. If you are fishing for salmon on closed rivers and are recieve a ticket you lose your gear. We have to change so we can fish our rivers and this has been successful on Atlantic rivers on the east coast and Canadian rivers. I talked today with Wdfw and they seemed open to this and feel this may work. My focus is mainly to give us an opportunity to fish cutthroat and steelhead which has been removed in the last few years. It was suggested that we as a community get involved with the North of Falcon decision making. We tend to sit on our hands and there are very few that give input and attend meetings. I know Curt and Salmo g have been involved and I think it’s time to get of our ass and let the wdfw decision makers know our concerns. I’m guilty of not taking the time to speak up for our community and that will change. We have some quality fisheries in our back yard and I think it’s time to do something. And it’s time for us to reduce our impacts and stop using the just catch and release fishing as an excuse for poaching. Tight lines
Click to expand...
I used to fish the Samish river just days before the salmon season opener. Why? Because the SRC fishing was open and usually very good. It was common to catch fresh kings on #6 Brad's Brats. I would use 6 lb Max and could land them if they weren't huge and things went well. I wasn't worried about losing the king, but more about losing my fly.

So for your scenario, let's make that river fly only...

I'm still catching salmon while legally fishing for trout with a 6wt, #6 fly, floating line, no weight, no indicator and no beads/eggs. I was legal and appropriate with my gear and intentions. I even refrained from nymphing as I knew that would hook/floss kings. Still caught multiple kings on multiple trips over the years.

I'm all for keeping that river open so I can fly fish it, but the only way not to catch any salmon is to close the river.

I'm with @JACKspASS on this issue. Fly only is great for places that have been that way for many decades, especially trout waters, but in this day and age, we need to be united with gear angers that throw single barbless hooks. We're already split enough. And there's way more of them than us.

And I also believe artificial only, barbless single hooks C&R sport fishing does not have a huge impact on steelhead & salmon. However, I think it can have a small impact if things go wrong. I'm thinking about small spawning tribs that are open year around or until last day of October because they are not a priority stream. A fair number of steelhead and salmon spawn in the "unnamed" blue lines that WDFW hasn't studied or doesn't worry about. All it takes is some guy to discover a couple holes full of silvers and the next weekend he and all his buddies are out there "catching" salmon.

And, I'm of the camp that the WDFW enforcement is weak AF. As I've posted in other threads like this...I've only been checked by enforcement a handful of times in my 40+ years of fishing in Washington. If we expect people to respect and truly abide by very specific regulations, the regs need to be very clear (they're not) and enforcement has to be real. At present, enforcement is at an all-time low.

I was on the upper Green just a couple nights ago. I went out there for mostly some spey casting practice, but also hopeful for a fat SRC. It's open for "TROUT" until end of October. I was casting a black #8 caddis/ant/muddler type thingy because the cutts love it. I could have easily raised a steelhead as well. No mention of steelhead in the regs for this river by the way. So is a steelhead a TROUT? I think I could probably safely argue that if it wasn't a salmon (like the 50 pinks that were in that run) then it's a trout. Even if that TROUT was 26" long. WDFW has given up on streams that they know don't have fishable numbers of steelhead so they go with the vague "TROUT" and call it good. Less enforcement required. Btw, there was woman fishing below me that said "I come here to get away from the craziness on the Puyallup. I caught a nice pink last night!" I just shook my head. I've informed plenty of people of the regs and that night I just didn't have it in me because...maybe she was fishing, legally, for TROUT.

If it's open, I'll fish it and fish it responsibly. If it's closed, I won't fish it. But if it's closed, who makes sure the poachers don't fish it?

Ok, I'm going to go tie some #6 Brad's Brats now. :cool:
 
cedarslug said:
Catch and release is ethical, however, many folks could use a lesson on it. Folks are still using tailing gloves, beaching fish onto dry land, taking grip and grins, and claim the “fish swam away fine.”
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Yup and they do swim away and most of them live, nearly all of them in fact and even if they die it has no impact on the survival of the species or the run.
 
You make a couple good points skyriver I have had many in counters with with none target species. If I find that I can change what I throw to avoid the closed species it is our responsibility to leave them alone. It no different to going to one of our fisheries right now and avoiding pinks it is possible to do. I’m not trying to change rivers to flyfishing only I’m trying to keep the few we have. As an example I have fishing the stillie for 40 years plus and have never caught a king and don’t fish for salmon. I have had coho and steelhead take cutthroat flies but have found ways to avoid that. To change the regulations is a no brainer to me and I will proceed as from what I got from the department they don want to close the fisheries. It is there only recourse due to the equipment we have and they are not up to speed on how to adjust fly fishing techniques to prevent encounters. When it comes to gear techniques they no how to adjust the regulations. I plan on educating them on ways to keep our opportunities open and prevent impacts on ESA listed stocks. I’m also open to suggestions from the this community as I want to deliver something that will work.
 
Under optimum circumstances, catch-and-release mortality can be as low as 1 percent. If the water is unusually warm or there are other stressors like improper handling, mortality can be as high as 20 percent or more.

Has anyone encountered any unusually warm water, lately? As for improper handling - - -I'd bet you have all encountered this and maybe have been guilty a time or two. I recall fishing the "once famous" Green Drake hatch on the "Holy Waters" of Idaho. The throngs of wading humanity decended on the river and marched right by me has the hatch progressed. Soon after and for the remainder of that morning dead fish started floating by. Large, wild, beautifully shaped bows that would soon be a meal for something wild. That was 50 years ago when the water temps were favorable and there were seemingly less idiots!
 
The people hurting the kings on the stilly are not people who are fishing legally or ethically and regulations have nothing to do with it. I live 6 minutes from the Cicero bridge. I drive over it a few times a day. I swim my dogs and tube the river. I’m out there a lot. I see poachers nearly daily while the river is closed. I floated Saturday and saw 6 people spin fishing for salmon. I found lures, jigs tipped with prawn and empty bait containers at the deep pools. Other than that I saw a lot of fly fishermen enjoying a nice day on the stilly. Unless WDFW finds enough budget to actually patrol and enforce regs on the stilly, it would likely be better to leave it open with the current regs and let there be more legal anglers on the river to make the poachers at least squirm a little bit. Right now they do it boldly and confidently and nothing ever happens. And those guys aren’t CNR fans. 100% mortality rate on whatever gets tangled up on their barbed treble hooks.

Catching chinook on the stilly hasn’t been a problem I’ve encountered, but it’s probably because I’m generally fishing a floating line and a cutthroat fly which leaves the odds awfully low.
 
I’d support anyone’s plan to put pressure on the state to open the NF Stilly for trout and steelhead. It’s a shame it is closed in the first place. I’d even support no weighted flies and no sinking lines if that’s what it takes. I just think the crux of the issue is not the regulations. We can’t regulate ethics into people who lack them, and we can’t stop people from breaking the law by giving them more laws.
 
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