Guns

speedbird

speedbird

Life of the Party
In my quest to add to my list of hobby's that will ensure I have no money, I decided to take an Introduction to Handguns and Gun Safety class at West Coast Armory North. I had, no pun intended, a blast. I did not grow up around guns, but have long been interested in learning how to shoot, and eventually owning a gun. It seems like a good survival skill, and is a part of outdoorsman heritage. Plenty of my closest friends shoot and have showed me the basics of how to hold a gun, how to oil and service a gun, and the basic gun safety rules. I suppose I would feel safer deep in backcountry with one as well, but I have a long way to go before I feel comfortable carrying while backpacking or even solo backpacking deep into the backcountry too.

There was a variety of arms available to shoot, and I got to shoot a Glock 17, Glock 19, and a S&W .38 Special. (Sadly someone claimed the .357 before I could). I tried the Glock 17 because I thought the larger gun might have less recoil and be easier to grip, as I have very big hands, but didn't really find much of a difference between shooting a G17 or G19. A couple people decided to skip the third round of shooting, and I got to go a 4th time and ended up using the Glock 19 again, and I found I shot better. I think it just came down to technique. My favorite was the .38 special. The recoil kicked hard, and I honestly hated the tiny rear sight, but for whatever reason I just enjoyed handling the revolvers more. It might come from subconscious mental associations of revolvers with cowboys, and old school outdoors man. Or I might just enjoy the simplicity and aesthetics.

A couple things I did not like about the safety class - The follow up, Handgun Fundementals, requires you to already own your own gun. While I have a basic understanding of gun safety, I still have no clue what kind of characteristics I like and do not like in guns, and don't really feel comfortable buying one. There is also the added cost of a gun safe, my extended family has small kids who visit frequently. At the end, the instructors seemed to hammer in that a first time gun owner should not get a gun with a manual safety. Unfortunately, they could not give me any convincing arguments as to why. The crux of the argument was that modern striker fired pistols have sufficient safeguards to prevent uncommanded discharge, and that the manual safety is one extra step to remember to use that many people will not be able to remember in an "emergency situation". From my perspective, I do not trust myself to walk around in the street carrying a gun right now, and apart from fishing alone in places where I know to expect large aggressive predators or humans who might not take kindly to a person of color (Or any community outsider really) fishing in "their" spot, I am not sure I ever plan to be going to Walmart "scanning the perimeter for threats".

As I see it, I am far more statistically likely to negligently shoot myself, even when I ingrain good gun safety habits into myself early, than I am to ever need to use a gun in self defense. Furthermore, I would just describe myself as a hobby shooter for the foreseeable future. The argument against a manual safety just doesn't hold sway with me. Even if I was carrying a gun for self defense, if I don't have 0.5 seconds to turn a manual safety off, I wonder if I even have time to assess if I am truly using a firearm defensively. The only temptation I have towards a gun without one is that Glocks are known for being basically "bulletproof" and extraordinarily reliable. I would also eventually like to own a revolver just for the fun of it. People here usually have fact based opinions and are level headed and knowledgeable, and I know there's quite a few shooters here. Are there any better arguments against a manual safety for a first gun? I am currently considering a Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0
 
It seems like your head is in the right place. You’re asking the right questions. The number one quotient in gun ownership (esp carrying one) is training.

You’re on the right track with trying out various makes, models, and calibers. You will find one that fits you. I wouldn’t be too quick to jump toward the S&W M&P if you haven’t fired one. They make exceptional wheel guns, but their autos, in my opinion, not so much. You can’t go wrong with a Glock, unless of course, they don’t fit you.

Keep doing what you’re doing. It’ll fall into place.
 
Congratulations on having the good sense to take a handgun safety course prior to even consider owning one.

Despite having owned and used firearms since early childhood (and I'm now 74), and a stint in the Marine Corps, I don't consider myself any sort of expert on the subject...but it did engender a deep and healthy respect for firearm safety.

Aside from the very enjoyable aspect of honing one's skills with a handgun through target practice the primary purpose of carrying one is personal protection, and in that regard it's been well established that even well trained law enforcement officers will sometimes attempt to repeatedly fire their weapon with the safety on...which has sometimes led to fatal consequences. Forgetting to release the safety is quite common in crisis situations...in fact it's not uncommon for game hunters to do so, especially in their early hunting years (buck fever!).

The widespread use of service handguns by LEOs without safeties (primarily the utterly dependable and rugged Glock) exists because the weapon can be used without having to remember to release the safety.

Three practices of particular importance are critical with all handguns, but most especially with those without safeties...
1) They must be carried in a holster until such time they are being readied to fire. Carrying a loose handgun in a pocket or waistband is an accident waiting to happen.
2) The user must keep their trigger finger outside the trigger guard until the time firing the weapon is intended ('indexing').
3) The user must carefully and deliberately reholster the handgun such that objects like drawstrings or clothing do not inadvertently fire the weapon.

It should also be mentioned that there are always huge discussions in the personal protection handgun world about whether it's appropriate to carry a semi-automatic handgun without a round in the chamber so that one is less likely to accidently have an accident because it requires a conscious decision to pull the slide back to introduce a round into the empty chamber. My carry weapons are mostly all Glocks and I keep a round in the chamber, though some family members are more comfortable keeping the chamber clear...which is understandable.
 
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So to start: Gun people can be very opinionated. I certainly have a couple opinions. But the most important thing is that you do whatever feels the best for you, and that if you want to use it in a self defense scenario you train to use that gun. If you want to use a gun with a safety, then go for it! If you are comfortable with that firearm and its manual of arms that is much better than a 'better' gun that you aren't comfortable with. Statistically you'll never need to use your gun, and even if you do most of the time just drawing the gun is enough to resolve the encounter. I haven't gotten my concealed carry since moving to WA, I had it in OR. Frankly I never used it, living in the semi-sticks on Whidbey I've yet to feel the need for it and if someone rolled up on my house I'd be openly brandishing a gun rather than concealing it.

But anyway, pistols with safeties are fine. My favorite pistol is a CZ-85 Combat with a safety, the only downside is decocking it for a competition or something. When hunting I've carried it cocked and locked no problem. I also have no issue with the more modern trend of strikers with no safety. I have a Sig P365 (that I haven't shot, I really need to go to the range that I joined a year ago) which is what I would carry.

Revolvers are also great. They're very compact if your goal is carry, and the bullet profiles in 38spl and 357 are excellent for self defense. Revolver triggers are also usually fantastic. I have a S&W Model 10 that I rebuilt into a snub nose, its a perfect carry gun (except I need to mill down the front sight), smooth trigger but not going to pull when snagged easily, fits in a jacket pocket.

Rambling over. TLDR: Do whatever feels best, its probably a perfectly fine choice.
 
Learning how to handle an acquired handgun is the same whether with a MS or not, a matter of practice until it is a natural process.
The M&P 2.0 compact with manual safety is an excellent handgun, as are the Sig Sauer 365 series and compact MS models from CZ and Canik.
Owning, storing and carrying a concealed weapon is not a task taken lightly. Besides the proper frame of mind it requires trying different holster configurations, sturdy belts, cover clothing, and few wished the weapon they carried was bigger and heavier, which is why high capacity compacts and micro-compacts have become so popular.
For gun reviews the 'Honest Outlaw' on YouTube is highly popular and very well done, and the Reddit CCW forum has much to offer as well.
 
I like double action/single action pistols with safeties and decockers. I have striker fired pistols also. I know two people who have shot themselves in the leg while holstering a striker fired pistols. An untucked shirt can interfere with the trigger while holstering. My Springfield also has a grip safety, but it only solves that problem if while holstering,you push it in with your thumb on the back of the slide and NOT on the grip.
One argument people make is the striker fired option is faster or more reliable because you don’t have to remember to operate the safety. This is hogwash. Proper training and practice will result in never ignoring a safety, and a well designed firearms safety can be operated faster than you can raise and aim.
You already found one of the most important characteristics to look for and that is how it fits you. If it fits well you will shoot better with it.
All that said, I think you are right to think that carrying a firearm will not increase your overall safety. The risk of large animal interactions in the wilds is largely overblown, carrying a firearm is a pain in the ass, and a serious responsibility. The human component is something I cannot judge for you as my life experience is much different than yours. I wish people could just treat each other how they want to be treated.
I own firearms because I like the shooting activity. I never carry them because I think I may need to defend myself. I treat people with respect, and I don’t approach wild animals close enough to inspire a defensive response. So far, it’s worked.
 
Endless suggestions/opinions for this.
Best is find one your personally comfortable with carrying and practice so you can ALWAYS hit what you're aiming at.
Personally, I avoid large calibers for safety reasons.
EDC is either a Glock (unchambered) or Ruger (chambered safety on)with extended mags in 9mm. Concealed carry permit.
Ruger is an inside appendix carry. It doesn't pull my trousers down like some larger calibers would.
9 years USMC (no need to "Thank you for your service') and going on 78 years, still do range time. I hit what I aim at. Stationary or moving.
 
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Try a Walther PPQ 9mm.
Easy shooting and very accurate, one of my favorite next to the Glock 30 chambered in 4.5
 
I wear Duluth Trading Company Firehose cargo pants or shorts year around, super comfortable with a slight stretch to the material having been designed for tradesmen, have the best deep pockets for concealed carry, plenty of room for the Sig 365 .380 in Aholster that I favor for carry. The Sig is highly accurate and with it's light recoil easy to stay on target when rapid firing. Today's hotter .380 ammo is plenty effective for close range defense.
What I like about pocket carry besides it's comfort in those cargo pants, is if situational awareness, the most important tool for self defense, recognizes a developing situation I can slip my hand in the pocket and grip the weapon for readiness. During a draw my thumb will swipe off the manual safety by the time it clears the pocket.

Men's DuluthFlex Fire Hose Relaxed Fit Cargo Work Pants | Duluth Trading Company

Duluth's exclusive DuluthFlex Fire Hose Pants have all the features of the original Fire Hose Pants but weigh about 1/3 less and offer 3x more flex.
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I've aways enjoyed shooting. "Bullseye target shooting", which is generally shooting a .22 pistol at a target 25 yards away, with one hand, is a very popular "sport". It's fun, relatively inexpensive and is a good way to learn the basics. Putting aside rifle shooting and the art and science of shotgunning....we come to the subject of "defensive handguns". Boiled down (shamelessly) this comes down to a 9mm with a barrel 4 inches or shorter, primarily using the "thumbs forward " two hand grip. The IDPA (international defensive pistol association) is, IMHO, the best way to train for using a defensive pistol, ( lot's of you tube videos). For this I would highly recommend narrowing the options to three...M&P, Glock or Springfield ....these are the ones that will not fail (jam).
 
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Assuming you eventually may want to conceal carry...I would suggest looking into the smaller 9mm pistols. The "service"pistols are more accurate, but feel like a brick attached to your belt. Statistically, most instances involving self defense pistols being used are.... from less than 3 feet, with 3 shots or less fired, and over in less than 3 seconds. This rule of 3's is good to remember when choosing a pistol for concealed carry. 17 rounds with a tight group at 7 yards is a good thing, but statistically, unlikely to be beneficial.
 
Of course this a complex subject. Discussions regarding pocket carry, holster options, caliber choices, manufacturer choice etc... can be overwhelming for a newbie. If I were to give advice ...I would say..get a Ruger .22 target pistol first..just for the fun of it. Then get a Springfield Hellcat or maybe a Baby Glock next if you want a defensive pistol that you can practice with at your local IDPA events. Many gun owners like to acquire several pistols (because it's fun). But for a self defense weapon....the old saying "Fear the man that owns only one gun" is a wise statement. Name the pistol, learn to clean it, practice with only that one gun...in a stressful situation, it is imperative to be able to just shoot...not having to think about what gun, what safety, what sight picture etc...
 
Decades ago I was packing with my girlfriend for a camping trip in the dessert near the southern border. I threw in my Ruger .22 pistol. She mercilessly ridiculed me and mocked me for this. Late that night, in our tent, ten miles from the freeway, out in the dessert, a pickup truck full of loud, drunken yahoos came through the campground. She leaned over and whispered in my ear.."Do you have that gun in here?" I teased her about that for over ten years.
 
SurfnFish said:
I wear Duluth Trading Company Firehose cargo pants or shorts year around, super comfortable with a slight stretch to the material having been designed for tradesmen, have the best deep pockets for concealed carry, plenty of room for the Sig 365 .380 in Aholster that I favor for carry. The Sig is highly accurate and with it's light recoil easy to stay on target when rapid firing. Today's hotter .380 ammo is plenty effective for close range defense.
What I like about pocket carry besides it's comfort in those cargo pants, is if situational awareness, the most important tool for self defense, recognizes a developing situation I can slip my hand in the pocket and grip the weapon for readiness. During a draw my thumb will swipe off the manual safety by the time it clears the pocket.

Men's DuluthFlex Fire Hose Relaxed Fit Cargo Work Pants | Duluth Trading Company

Duluth's exclusive DuluthFlex Fire Hose Pants have all the features of the original Fire Hose Pants but weigh about 1/3 less and offer 3x more flex.
www.duluthtrading.com www.duluthtrading.com
Click to expand...
Duluth's FLEXPEDITION pants are also excellent for carry, with the added benefit of containing zero cotton, which makes them better in the sticks.

Depending upon I'm doing I'll carry a baby Glock 42 or a Ruger LCP (laser under the barrel model), both in .380. Occasionally carry a Glock 30 (45 ACP) in a kydex chest harness (doesn't conflict with backpack).

While I try to maintain proficiency with all my handguns I most enjoy range practice with my Ruger Mark target pistols...a delight to shoot, extremely accurate, and the latest models are simple to reassemble (compared to the old Marks, which come apart easy but a bit more difficult to reassemble until you learn its subtle tricks).
 
I shoot a lot of different guns, for fun and protection. My EDC, depending on where and when is either a 1911 or a J-frame D/A revolver. You couldn’t give me a striker fired gun, JMHO. I’ve also added a Byrna CL to my arsenal.
 
A $3,000 1911 is very nice. And historically interesting. But, cheaper models of the 1911 are prone to "jams". A Glock 19 will almost NEVER jam.. period. The .45 is bigger, but compared to the modern hollow point 9mm the difference is minimal. The whole "locked and cocked" situation is intimidating ( for everyone). A simple striker fired, 9mm paired with a "inside the waist" Kydex holster is often recommended by experts... And by the way folks, I am not an expert.
 
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