Good advice for newer anglers looking for a rod.

[Evan B]

My recollection differs slightly from Kelly's. In the days when most fly rods were fiberglass, rod warranties did not exist. And except for some custom rods, prices topped out at $75. Then Fenwick introduced graphite rods in 1973. And there were some material, design, and production problems and a lot of these new fangled $150 graphite rods broke. No warranty, but Fenwick and the shops worked with customers to make things right for everyone as much as they were able. Then Sage entered the marketplace scene in 1980, and their rods cost even more. Still no real warranty, but they were a new and good thing and they sold well. But by the late 1980s, Sage and some other rods crossed the $300 price point. To cushion the blow, many of the manufacturers introduced the lifetime, no-fault warranty. Orvis may have been the wiser business and saw how flawed that concept was, so they introduced their 25 year warranty.

Fast forward to just a few years ago and Sage saw what an unsustainable business practice those lifetime warranties are, and they up and changed it, thereby double-crossing all those customers who, over the years, were persuaded to pay the higher price for Sage rods because of the fabulous warranty they came with. While I have and like some Sage rods, I won't buy another because I won't do business with someone who double-crosses their customers. It's not the customers' fault that those warranties were an ill-informed and unsustainable business practice. The fault lies entirely with Sage and any other company that offered warranties that they couldn't realistically stand behind. A company with integrity would stand behind those lifetime no-fault warranties and change the warranty and policy on all new rods going forward, not changing the warranty on rods sold long ago.

Anyway, Kelly's right. There are very good rods at almost every price point. The industry is just that good. I don't test cast new rods very often of late, but when I was doing it I was amazed at how few "bad" rods I encountered. And to be honest, most of those not so good rods were lower priced rods, but even so, there are some few higher cost rods that are real dogs IMO. And that's just it. Because rods are personal, there is a perfect or near perfect rod for every caster at every price point.

While this is certainly a valid stance, the other side is that these companies didn't realize the extent at which customers turned this around in to a "free/cheap rod trade in program for life" policy. I know for some companies, the policy change was not out of greed, it was simply for survival after years of being taken advantage of.

 

[Evan B]

Fast forward to the present and it's easy to armchair quarterback what happened with these warranties. I mean what were they thinking?! I slam my tailgate with the rod in the way and you will buy me a new one? Not a very sound business plan. Kelly is correct in stating that the rods today are well made and many lesser value rods fish very nicely. So then two things come into play: the initial cost and what it will cost if I break the rod? Again as he states, rods don't break, we break rods. If there's a factory flaw the rod will break soon after you start fishing it. And for me the two things that I mention lead me to choose Echo rods. I now have seven of them because, like many they have a warranty for life, for all that is worth after fishing for a while, but they also have tips and sections available for a reasonable price that doesn't involve me mailing the entire rod to them to get it all back up and fishing. That is very convenient. $20 to $40 for a tip section on most single-hand rods compared to $50, $95 $195 for tips from Sage. It's easy to choose Echo based on that but aside from that they make damn good rods and they price them reasonably.

I'm actually the architect of the current ECHO warranty program. The vast majority of customers have been very happy with it. And even the ones who purchased rods prior to the change are being given very fair offers. Nobody being turned away. The only ones that have been turned away are a few "destroyed all 4 pieces by running it over but the rod is discontinued now" instances.

 

[Buzzy]

I did get to cast Helios 3F 5wt in Coeur d'Alene in 21 that belonged to Fred's nephew, who works in fly shop that is a Orvis dealer. I wasn't overwhelmed!

What was this rod lined with when you weren't overwhelmed? I fished Helios 3f 6 wt (guide's rod) lined with a Teeny TS sinking line and came close to casting the entire line (No - it wasn't a double taper cut in half), something I'd never come close to ever before. So in my opinion there was something to this rod and line combination that was for me, magic. $998.00 magic? Or just the right combination of rod and line? I think line choice is often a key that is missed by anglers. I bought an Echo 890 Ion XL last year for a trip to Alaska, with the right line, that rod is a cannon.

 

[jasmillo]

For those of you who have worked in the business, is their any validity to the argument that the push to lighter, “high performance” materials has made rods more susceptible to breakage?

I own rods from $100 to $1000. I fish a good amount and have put a lot of hours on most of them. Outside of one exception, I’ve only had breakage issues with my fast, high end stuff. In particular Sage. I’ve had numerous Sage rods in for repair multiple times each.

I tend to agree with the notion that rods don’t break often due to plain failure. I am sure 99.9% of the breaks I have had where I did not slam the tip in a car door (or something similar) happened because of some action by me. The rods that break most for me are beach rods, in particular beach salmon rods so they take a beating. I use them a lot, I tend to fish heavy shooting heads with them, I fish a lot of clousers with heavy eyes, etc. if I were using them for every day trout use, I doubt I’d have the issues I’ve had. That said, rods get used for a variety of purposes and I would argue the way I am using these models (think Sage high end, fast models; One, X, Ignitor, etc.) is where these models really shine. I wouldn’t buy an Ignitor or One for anything but streamer fishing but maybe some would.

So why not step down the performance aspect of these rods for a little more durability? Are the materials used so different that the average caster would pick up in the difference?

Having never been involved in the rod design/build world, my novice take is companies have spent a lot of time designing great casting tools, not fishing tools. Especially with their high end stuff. Am I way off thinking this way?

 

[Evan B]

For those of you who have worked in the business, is their any validity to the argument that the push to lighter, “high performance” materials has made rods more susceptible to breakage?

I own rods from $100 to $1000. I fish a good amount and have put a lot of hours on most of them. Outside of one exception, I’ve only had breakage issues with my fast, high end stuff. In particular Sage. I’ve had numerous Sage rods in for repair multiple times each.

I tend to agree with the notion that rods don’t break often due to plain failure. I am sure 99.9% of the breaks I have had where I did not slam the tip in a car door (or something similar) happened because of some action by me. The rods that break most for me are beach rods, in particular beach salmon rods so they take a beating. I use them a lot, I tend to fish heavy shooting heads with them, I fish a lot of clousers with heavy eyes, etc. if I were using them for every day trout use, I doubt I’d have the issues I’ve had. That said, rods get used for a variety of purposes and I would argue the way I am using these models (think Sage high end, fast models; One, X, Ignitor, etc.) is where these models really shine. I wouldn’t buy an Ignitor or One for anything but streamer fishing but maybe some would.

So why not step down the performance aspect of these rods for a little more durability? Are the materials used so different that the average caster would pick up in the difference?

Having never been involved in the rod design/build world, my novice take is companies have spent a lot of time designing great casting tools, not fishing tools. Especially with their high end stuff. Am I way off thinking this way?

Absolutely, 100%. Higher modulus, lighter rods break at a way, way higher rate than lower modulus, heavier rods. They have "thinner walls" to resist impacts, and are for lack of a better way to put it, more brittle. The tip section on lighter rods is especially prone to breakage as there just isn't that much material there.

 

[Michael1227]

What was this rod lined with when you weren't overwhelmed? I fished Helios 3f 6 wt (guide's rod) lined with a Teeny TS sinking line and came close to casting the entire line (No - it wasn't a double taper cut in half), something I'd never come close to ever before. So in my opinion there was something to this rod and line combination that was for me, magic. $998.00 magic? Or just the right combination of rod and line? I think line choice is often a key that is missed by anglers.

The rod belonged to someone who guides in North Idaho. It had a WF5F with, I'm assuming, an "aggressive front taper". I'm not interested in casting the entire length of line. If I'm that far away from a fish, I need to move. For me 50' is as far as I need to cast (includes the rod and leader), and usually less than 40'.

 

[SurfnFish]

Today's $300 rods are yesterday's $800 rods and the average fly fisherman, much less a newbie, is not going to outperform such offerings from Echo or TFO. Instagram influencers shown chucking 90' casts across the river are scattering fish, not catchng them.
Best lesson I ever learned was one mid morning on the Trinity by the hatchery, a new to me fishery, where guys were hucking long distance casts across the river. Chatted with a guy leaning against the hood of his truck who pointed to the casters "their all standing on the fish, so just wait until they all leave, and by then the hatch will be on." Sure enough, they all left the river within the hour, and we started taking fish after fish on Yellow Sally's while standing in 2' of water, short casting parallel to the shore.
Tried out my son's Moonshine 8'6 4 wt this summer on Fall River. Great little rod, just over $200.

 

[Scudley Do Right]

For those of you who have worked in the business, is their any validity to the argument that the push to lighter, “high performance” materials has made rods more susceptible to breakage?

I own rods from $100 to $1000. I fish a good amount and have put a lot of hours on most of them. Outside of one exception, I’ve only had breakage issues with my fast, high end stuff. In particular Sage. I’ve had numerous Sage rods in for repair multiple times each.

I tend to agree with the notion that rods don’t break often due to plain failure. I am sure 99.9% of the breaks I have had where I did not slam the tip in a car door (or something similar) happened because of some action by me. The rods that break most for me are beach rods, in particular beach salmon rods so they take a beating. I use them a lot, I tend to fish heavy shooting heads with them, I fish a lot of clousers with heavy eyes, etc. if I were using them for every day trout use, I doubt I’d have the issues I’ve had. That said, rods get used for a variety of purposes and I would argue the way I am using these models (think Sage high end, fast models; One, X, Ignitor, etc.) is where these models really shine. I wouldn’t buy an Ignitor or One for anything but streamer fishing but maybe some would.

So why not step down the performance aspect of these rods for a little more durability? Are the materials used so different that the average caster would pick up in the difference?

Having never been involved in the rod design/build world, my novice take is companies have spent a lot of time designing great casting tools, not fishing tools. Especially with their high end stuff. Am I way off thinking this way?

You ever try fiberglass?

 

[Pink Nighty]

I'm actually the architect of the current ECHO warranty program. The vast majority of customers have been very happy with it. And even the ones who purchased rods prior to the change are being given very fair offers. Nobody being turned away. The only ones that have been turned away are a few "destroyed all 4 pieces by running it over but the rod is discontinued now" instances.

Can confirm that warranty is awesome and a big reason I'm happy to buy new echo rods. Thanks for that!

 

[jasmillo]

You ever try fiberglass?

I have a couple of fiberglass rods for trout fishing and enjoy them quite a bit.

Not the right tool for me from the beach though. Especially for coho. I want one water load, one false cast and out when coho fishing. My casting style/ability would not allow for that with a fiberglass rod. Ones I have fished anyway.

 

[Banned user]

I have nothing to add but to agree with most, and thank you all for the many informative posts! I've been waiting for an Edge rod since I ordered it at the beginning of December, to replace the two I stupidly broke last year. If I have wait much longer, I'll ask my local fly shop (which carries Echo) would stock a Traverse kit for me to try out.

 

[jaredoconnor]

Today's $300 rods are yesterday's $800 rods and the average fly fisherman, much less a newbie, is not going to outperform such offerings from Echo or TFO. Instagram influencers shown chucking 90' casts across the river are scattering fish, not catchng them.
Best lesson I ever learned was one mid morning on the Trinity by the hatchery, a new to me fishery, where guys were hucking long distance casts across the river. Chatted with a guy leaning against the hood of his truck who pointed to the casters "their all standing on the fish, so just wait until they all leave, and by then the hatch will be on." Sure enough, they all left the river within the hour, and we started taking fish after fish on Yellow Sally's while standing in 2' of water, short casting parallel to the shore.
Tried out my son's Moonshine 8'6 4 wt this summer on Fall River. Great little rod, just over $200.

I don't think this is a recent thing. Up until about 4 years ago, I still owned my very first graphite rod. It was purchased in ~1998 and it was just as light and functional as any rod that I have owned since. It wasn't an expensive rod; it was some random $200 local Australian brand.

As an engineer, I refute most of the BS in the fly rod market. Typical trout rods have not changed, meaningfully, in over a decade. Making a piece of graphite bend a certain way just isn't a complicated engineering problem anymore. When rod designers try to convince everyone otherwise, talking about nebulous concepts like "feel" and "soul", I just assume they're not very competent; they probably have limited engineering background and are producing products via a process of trial and error, or similar. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic", is a saying that comes to mind.

Niche rods are a whole other matter, though. Euro rods, for example, have only reached a point of maturity in the last couple of years and there's still a lot of designers lagging behind the state of the art. If you're the first rod designer to ever do something, it's a risk and the idea has merit, you've earned the right to charge a bit more.

 

[Scudley Do Right]

I have a couple of fiberglass rods for trout fishing and enjoy them quite a bit.

Not the right tool for me from the beach though. Especially for coho. I want one water load, one false cast and out when coho fishing. My casting style/ability would not allow for that with a fiberglass rod. Ones I have fished anyway.

I don't know that much about glass. It's harder to break but you give up some performance. @clarkman might be able to help you out. If someone makes an s-glass blank it might work for you or even moderate graphite. Just seems like you are snapping rods at a high rate. You probably fish more than me these days but I've only broken one rod. I dropped it I the parking lot trying to get it out of the case. I don't run the fastest rods out there so that might have something to do with it.

 

[clarkman]

I have a couple of fiberglass rods for trout fishing and enjoy them quite a bit.

Not the right tool for me from the beach though. Especially for coho. I want one water load, one false cast and out when coho fishing. My casting style/ability would not allow for that with a fiberglass rod. Ones I have fished anyway.

I'm assuming you've not tried any of the newish glass rods? my favorite surf perch rod is probably my Steffen 7/8 glass. shooting heads....one roll cast to get most of the head out, a couple of hauls and let it fly. While I can't quite get the distance as my H3, it's pretty damn close, and much more fun. Same way I fish for tigers 1-2 hauls to get the head out, and let it fly (but that's with my Bandit 10wt). Actually, with the right line, my BAG 7wt can be a little hand cannon too. IMO, heavier weight glass pairs very well with shooting head style lines.

It's not indestructible, however....Probably 5-6 years ago, I fell hard on my Steffen 7/8 and broke it (must have hit just right) but that's the only time I've broken any of my glass rods. $60 later and several months later and I had a new section rolled up for me.

 

[Islander]

I'm actually the architect of the current ECHO warranty program. The vast majority of customers have been very happy with it. And even the ones who purchased rods prior to the change are being given very fair offers. Nobody being turned away. The only ones that have been turned away are a few "destroyed all 4 pieces by running it over but the rod is discontinued now" instances.

This sounds like something you came up with also, “Brilliant”.
“Do not use tape on your ferrules. If you do we’ll come steal all your bacon and PBR.”

 

[jasmillo]

I don't know that much about glass. It's harder to break but you give up some performance. @clarkman might be able to help you out. If someone makes an s-glass blank it might work for you or even moderate graphite. Just seems like you are snapping rods at a high rate. You probably fish more than me these days but I've only broken one rod. I dropped it I the parking lot trying to get it out of the case. I don't run the fastest rods out there so that might have something to do with it.

I had a bad spell for sure but actually made it through last salmon season unscathed .

There are a lot of guys fishing coho from the beach using some higher end, fast rods like me and not breaking them at the rate I did there for a bit. Not sure if it was user error or just bad luck. Hoping for the latter.

I'm assuming you've not tried any of the newish glass rods? my favorite surf perch rod is probably my Steffen 7/8 glass. shooting heads....one roll cast to get most of the head out, a couple of hauls and let it fly. While I can't quite get the distance as my H3, it's pretty damn close, and much more fun. Same way I fish for tigers 1-2 hauls to get the head out, and let it fly (but that's with my Bandit 10wt). Actually, with the right line, my BAG 7wt can be a little hand cannon too. IMO, heavier weight glass pairs very well with shooting head style lines.

It's not indestructible, however....Probably 5-6 years ago, I fell hard on my Steffen 7/8 and broke it (must have hit just right) but that's the only time I've broken any of my glass rods. $60 later and several months later and I had a new section rolled up for me.

Not sure I buy it. I think you’ll have to take me musky fishing to prove it .

All kidding aside. I might give a that a shot sometime. What lines are you using with your 7 weight BAG?

 

[clarkman]

Not sure I buy it. I think you’ll have to take me musky fishing to prove it .

All kidding aside. I might give a that a shot sometime. What lines are you using with your 7 weight BAG?

Just say when....

I really like the SA Titan Sonar for the BAG (really anything in that 230-250gr range works really well). You may need to open up your casting stroke a touch.

The Sonar that I have is 240gr and I also like the Cortland Compact, which has a 240gr head (it's only 26' compared to 33' for the SA but both work very well).