Future anti fishery fishery managers

Locally since 1969 to date the human population in Washington State has grown from 3.343 million to 7.738 million. The fallout from this growth in a fields like fisheries management makes the changes student interests reported by Kashf not only predictable but likely necessary.

That growth has result in human exploitation from all activities approaching full exploitation. The fishery manager today faces two major challenges; how can a population be sustained at those high exploitation rates and what if any of that exploitation rate can or should be reserved for fishing. Then secondarily the question becomes how best to allocate any reserved fishing impacts for competing interests including how best to maximize the value/return of those fishing impacts. Clearly strong foundation in ecology is now essential to today's fishery manager.

We don't have to look any further than recent discussions on a potential Skagit/Sauk CnR fishery this spring to see a real world example of the above. The Skagit Steelhead forecast this year at which many are looking to fishing is just barely 10% of the estimated historic basin steelhead abundance. And this is by far the "healthiest" PS steelhead population.

In full disclosure it should be apparent to all that the 1960s management emphasis failed miserably. The pressure of that failure drove the iterative adaptative management process to a place that Kashf is now seeing at school.

Curt
 
The uneducated being taught by an activist with a weaponized agenda is dangerous and detrimental to society and the ecosystem.
 
Last edited:
I have been mulling over this thread all night because I think I started my career a lot more radical than I am now and could relate to some of these “protector” type mentalities.

What I learned is that with all the politics, money, and straight up BS in the world, especially the fisheries world, you can’t really protect a thing. It is a childish thought process to think that these fish need protecting and you can make it happen. It is too complicated and the world is too big.

And so I will share what actually mattered to me and it has nothing to do with removing access, curtailing fisheries and protecting fish. I sleep well at night thinking of the dozens of fish passage projects I have worked on, where fish could get back into areas they couldn’t, the conservation lands I have helped acquire, and the tens of thousands of trees I have planted.

Ironically, I feel the best thing we can do for fish is some of the simplest, like planting trees and letting lands restore themselves to functionality. When you get into the fantasy world that a barbless hook matters more than a barbed hook you are dancing with BS. Everything that has an effect does matter, but does it matter enough to be worth your time? That is an important question to ask yourself.

The models they run don’t do a thing to help fish. It’s just window dressing to hide the overfishing by commercial fisheries and give it a guise of sustainability.
 
University of Washington was my dream school but for financial reasons, I was a wildlife zoology major at San Jose State in the late 1970's/early 80's. Our program covered both fisheries and wildlife disciplines and partnered with UC Berkeley (Starker Leopold lectured in one of our classes). Our senior class of 18 students (1981) had one other angler and I was the only one that hunted. Yeah, it was San Jose State and not Humboldt, OSU or UW but even then, the trend had started.

I had a 35 year career with California Department of Fish and Wildlife (mostly in wildlife programs) and we had our first workshop on trying to slow the decline of hunters and anglers (also called "consumptive users") back in the mid 1980's. I'm not surprised what @Kashf and others have gone through - it's been a long time in the making. As many have already pointed out - it's definitely been exacerbated by the current state of our society.

The hook and bullet term has been around a long time. It didn't just apply to folks that work with harvest, it was a label for anyone that liked to hunt and/or fish. Most folks I worked with in both fisheries and wildlife were hook and bullet and very passionate about their jobs. I loved my career and would have done it for free. Now get off my lawn!
 
Last edited:
I would remind them that they are getting a world class scientific education and so they should forget about good guys and bad guys and actually see some nuance in why the world is the way it is. CnR exists to make fisheries sustainable… Plus, If you weighed the impacts to fish that a CnR fly guy would have compared to other impacts, there is no comparison. The impact would be scientifically immeasurable for CnR compared to commercial fishing. Imagine the slice on that pie chart for CnR fishing and the slice for impacts from commercial fishing. If they believe CnR is unethical, then all fishing is, and they are thinking ideologically and are not getting a good scientific education. They sound afraid to question what the institution is telling them so they aren’t true scientists yet. They are towing the line, it is what young people usually do, they just need a few more years to get there, at least twenty more years.

I’ll throw a grenade…World Class indoctrination… OP… thanks for the briefing… good for you, speak your voice even if it’s unpopular… protect our fisheries and ability to enjoy them. Thank you!
 
I have been mulling over this thread all night because I think I started my career a lot more radical than I am now and could relate to some of these “protector” type mentalities.

What I learned is that with all the politics, money, and straight up BS in the world, especially the fisheries world, you can’t really protect a thing. It is a childish thought process to think that these fish need protecting and you can make it happen. It is too complicated and the world is too big.

And so I will share what actually mattered to me and it has nothing to do with removing access, curtailing fisheries and protecting fish. I sleep well at night thinking of the dozens of fish passage projects I have worked on, where fish could get back into areas they couldn’t, the conservation lands I have helped acquire, and the tens of thousands of trees I have planted.

Ironically, I feel the best thing we can do for fish is some of the simplest, like planting trees and letting lands restore themselves to functionality. When you get into the fantasy world that a barbless hook matters more than a barbed hook you are dancing with BS. Everything that has an effect does matter, but does it matter enough to be worth your time? That is an important question to ask yourself.

The models they run don’t do a thing to help fish. It’s just window dressing to hide the overfishing by commercial fisheries and give it a guise of sustainability.
HauntedByWaters… thank you for your meaningful contributions and dedication!
 
Just food for thought. We all start far more idealistic in college then get real world perspectives through experience. Second, I agree with Adam in that managing for maximum harvest isn't really the best protocol and has proven to be failed over and over. I think there is a balance in there somewhere that we need to strike to steward a resource and provide opportunities both commercial and recreational.
 
A few comments from another SAFS graduate, working in fisheries science and management for over 25 years. Although I started my graduate education at UW when it still was the "School of Fisheries" I finished my PhD in the renamed "School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences" (note the plural on Sciences).

Fishery sciences are relatively new, at least compared with other fields, and have seen quite substantial paradigm changes. At the onset a bit more than 150 years ago and for quite some time many leaders in the field had a view that fisheries were essentially inexaustible, for decades well into the following century the focus was to "develop", "promote", etc new fisheries accross the world. Concepts like maximum sustainable yield (MSY) were developed and made their way into national and international legislation with profound implications for fisheries worldwide. The concept is that there are different levels of exploitation that a natural resource (such as a fish population or stock) can sustain indifinetly. If you harvest nothing, there is no yield, if you harvest them all, there is no sustainable yield, somewhere in between is the maximum that can be sustainably harvested: MSY. Problem is that from concept to implementation there are multiple complications, such as issues estimating MSY with insuficient data, overfocus on single species MSY, wrong and not usefull population models, environmental/ecological/fishery changes, etc, that challenge implementation of MSY from theory to reality. In some cases managing to MSY has resulted in some catastrophic fishery collapses. Over time, there has been a shift from using MSY as "target" (what you want to achive) to using MSY related quantities as "limits" (what you should not exceed) for example in US fisheries legislation. Ultimately it depends on what are the management objectives: some fisheries still use MSY as a target (some tropical tuna fisheries), other ones specifically try to stay away from MSY (for example North Pacific Albacore) and try to keep the stock at some historical level reference. It all depends on what are the objectives for a particular fishery. The issue is not MSY, nor any other individual aspect of fisheries by itself or of exploitation of other natural resources needed to feed humanity ever growing numbers. More recently there has been a shift to more holistic views (bringing other fields, sciences and stakeholders), more precaution in making decisions acknowledging insuficient information and acknowleding/incorporating resource users other than industrial extraction. Progress has been made, catastrophic errors have been made too, some days I am more cynical than others about the future but I and many others on this field continue to make concerted efforts every day for a better future, there is hope and a lot of hard work and difficult decisions to be made.

@Kashf, it sounds like you are doing an undergraduate degree in Marine Biology (not SAFS itself), which is still pretty general in introducing students to the basics. I suspect many of your colleague students may have other interest other than fisheries and would end up in other fields/doing something else altogether if their passion is not there. If you were to continue in the field of fishery science/management you should definitely consider SAFS and/or SMAE. SAFS has consistently been ranked as the best fisheries program in the USA and arguably in the world (although somehow ranked 4th in the world last time I checked). SAFS also has a long history of innovation working together with fishery stakeholders not only nationally but worldwide. Getting into and finishing graduate school is quite an investment of time and resources if you are not really committed to it. There are also many roles (scientist, manager, advocate, activist, etc) that your colleagues may end up in the future, some of those roles are quite incompatible in a professional capacity where you have to put your personal views/biases aside and operate under the legal/operational confines of your profession. Just like with the science itself, they may mature as they progress or become stagnant/disinterested and advance in a different direction. I would challenge your professors and students when you have different views, it is your career to make. When I started my own carreer as an undergrad overseas, many other students wanted to be "like Jacques Cousteau", save the dolphins, etc. Not many of them finished that degree nor went to grad school, let alone ever worked in fisheries science/management. When I started at SAFS, I was lucky that I was surrounded by a large number of students that were active in the outdoors, some of which have been and still are my fishing buddies to this day.

Regarding Seaspiracy, there was a discussion thread in the old site (WFF) that you can still read and refer your classmates for commentary and links to reviews by actual experts in the field, rather than the biased, misleading and ultimately harmful impact towards real progress in ocean conservation of that "documentary".

Finnally, some reccomended reading below for those interested in the history of fishery sciences and the political and social context at the time (Scaling Fisheries), probably one the best accounts of the events leading to one of the largest fisheries disasters in history (Lament for an Ocean: The collapse of the Atlantic Cod Fishery). For those starting or interested in graduate studies see the last link, perhaps a bit cynical but classic on point advice.

Amazon product ASIN 0521038960
Amazon product ASIN 0771039581
 
Last edited:
What bothers me is managing for maximum timber harvest, impacts to fish be damned. I see USFWS get on board with massive logging and roadbuilding projects in steelhead critical habitat and wonder who they think their "clients" are.
 
What bothers me is managing for maximum timber harvest, impacts to fish be damned. I see USFWS get on board with massive logging and roadbuilding projects in steelhead critical habitat and wonder who they think their "clients" are.

That's inaccurate. Timber isn't managed by the forest service or DNR for maximum sustained harvest. While at one time timber harvest was pretty brutal there has been massive leaps forward and oversight. There has not been any appreciable timber harvest up any of the park origin peninsula rivers yet stocks are collapsed. Is there a particular project you see as out of line?
 
That's inaccurate. Timber isn't managed by the forest service or DNR for maximum sustained harvest. While at one time timber harvest was pretty brutal there has been massive leaps forward and oversight. There has not been any appreciable timber harvest up any of the park origin peninsula rivers yet stocks are collapsed. Is there a particular project you see as out of line?
The particular project I had in mind was the Lolo Insect and Disease Project in critical steelhead habitat in the Clearwater National Forest in Idaho, which was halted by a federal court in Idaho in 2021 on the grounds that the FS and USFWS cherry picked stale record high steelhead return numbers while ignoring more recent data showing record low returns.

 
The particular project I had in mind was the Lolo Insect and Disease Project in critical steelhead habitat in the Clearwater National Forest in Idaho, which was halted by a federal court in Idaho in 2021 on the grounds that the FS and USFWS cherry picked stale record high steelhead return numbers while ignoring more recent data showing record low returns.


Not familiar with that one. I'll have to give it a look.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zak
More recently there has been a shift to more holistic views (bringing other fields, sciences and stakeholders), more precaution in making decisions acknowledging insuficient information and acknowleding/incorporating resource users other than industrial extraction. Progress has been made, catastrophic errors have been made too, some days I am more cynical than others about the future but I and many others on this field continue to make concerted efforts every day for a better future, there is hope and a lot of hard work and difficult decisions to be made.

This was interesting to read and something I was curious about. It’s surprising to hear this is a recent development but understandable considering how complex managing fisheries has to be. Especially anadromous ones. The ever increasing demand for the resource, the competing interests for the resource, and the variety of ways the resource can be impacted - in many cases by the decisions made by managers (near and far) of other interrelated resources (or the same) who are also dealing with the same difficulties as you makes you really start to understand the complexity of the models and amount of good data needed to help drive sound decision making. Could those models have even been built 50 years ago?

It seems like an incredibly difficult and at times, frustrating profession to be in. Our fisheries managers/scientists get a lot of shit from folks, usually (not always) with some simplistic solution attached.

It does not mean I won’t complain on occasion. Just know that if I do, I’ll realize I am doing so with about 1/1,000,000,000,000 of the picture in mind :).
 
Other book suggestions for the OP: "Salmon Without Rivers," "Mountain in the Clouds," and "King of Fish." They're great historical overviews of the social, political, and economic forces that have driven the mismanagement of Pacific salmon stocks for the past ~150 years.
 
I think you are all confusing fisheries scientists with fishery managers. SAFS produce fishery scientists - and I think that it is unlikely than any of the people talked about by the original poster will ever reach that level. The scientists do research and analysis, and produce advice for managers, who are the people who make the actual decisions about exploitation level and allocations. Those are political decisions. In my career as a fishery scientist I never interacted with a manager who had any qualifications in fishery science.
 
I think you are all confusing fisheries scientists with fishery managers. SAFS produce fishery scientists - and I think that it is unlikely than any of the people talked about by the original poster will ever reach that level. The scientists do research and analysis, and produce advice for managers, who are the people who make the actual decisions about exploitation level and allocations. Those are political decisions. In my career as a fishery scientist I never interacted with a manager who had any qualifications in fishery science.
This is the situation that has brought on much of my jaded-ness. We (my science colleagues and I) do the "best available science" which takes a ton of effort and usually a ton of time (often years) between starting and publishing.

When we're done we hand over our report to the managers, who say "great, thanks, that box is ticked" and then they do whatever their political and/or lobbyist friends wanted to do in the first place.

The speed of science is far slower than the speed of policy.
 
I think you are all confusing fisheries scientists with fishery managers. SAFS produce fishery scientists - and I think that it is unlikely than any of the people talked about by the original poster will ever reach that level. The scientists do research and analysis, and produce advice for managers, who are the people who make the actual decisions about exploitation level and allocations. Those are political decisions. In my career as a fishery scientist I never interacted with a manager who had any qualifications in fishery science.

I always assumed science was the main driver of decisions by managers. I guess that was a pretty naive thought.

So you’re saying managers often deserve the shit we all sling :). I feel better now.
 
Back
Top