Fusion

Zak

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I'm excited by this and stoked that the breakthrough was achieved in the USA. While they say fusion energy is 20 years away and always will be, maybe that is a real timeline now.

TLDR: the fusion reaction produced more energy than it consumed.

 
Good for future salmon if they make it that long. Eventually, if commercially viable, this has a chance to be the real dam remover for hydropower dams.
 
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I'm excited by this and stoked that the breakthrough was achieved in the USA. While they say fusion energy is 20 years away and always will be, maybe that is a real timeline now.

TLDR: the fusion reaction produced more energy than it consumed.

Appreciate the TLDR synopsis, especially since I don't have a NYT subscription.
 
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the Holy Grail for clean and inexpensive energy...which means the vested interests of coal and oil will be lined up to to prevent the industry from getting the federal seed capital and tax breaks it needs. Whoever is first to bring fusion to market as a commercially viable power source will become the single most valuable company in the world.
Imagine a world where the OPEC countries have zero leverage, their oil profits no longer influencing our geo political strategies or funding state sponsored terrorism...let those bastards eat sand
 
Cool, but they are cooking the books like usual, probably to get more research grant moneys...


'To produce energy through fusion through this method -- if I understand this right -- you need to confine the reaction with powerful electromagnets. This itself requires a huge amount of energy -- but this energy is never included in the comparison of output vs. input when science "journalists" say "we almost reached break-even" or, today, "we produced 120% of the energy that we put in."

"The Sun (and all stars) have been pumping out energy from fusion reactions for gazillions of years. So what makes fusion so difficult here on Earth? In a nutshell: because things usually expand when heated. Hot and huge is easy, cold and confined is easy, but hot and confined is astonishingly difficult. In the sun and stars, gravity provides the confinement. Our sun is massive, more than a million Earths combined, and the crushing gravity in its core fuses hydrogen into helium rather easily. We don’t have that confinement scheme available to us on Earth, so we have to bootleg the confinement some other way, and that turns out to be a vexing problem both for the energetics of fusion confinement and for the engineering challenges it poses."
 
Cool, but they are cooking the books like usual, probably to get more research grant moneys...


'To produce energy through fusion through this method -- if I understand this right -- you need to confine the reaction with powerful electromagnets. This itself requires a huge amount of energy -- but this energy is never included in the comparison of output vs. input when science "journalists" say "we almost reached break-even" or, today, "we produced 120% of the energy that we put in."

"The Sun (and all stars) have been pumping out energy from fusion reactions for gazillions of years. So what makes fusion so difficult here on Earth? In a nutshell: because things usually expand when heated. Hot and huge is easy, cold and confined is easy, but hot and confined is astonishingly difficult. In the sun and stars, gravity provides the confinement. Our sun is massive, more than a million Earths combined, and the crushing gravity in its core fuses hydrogen into helium rather easily. We don’t have that confinement scheme available to us on Earth, so we have to bootleg the confinement some other way, and that turns out to be a vexing problem both for the energetics of fusion confinement and for the engineering challenges it poses."
Good point, although this approach does not use the Tokamak doughnut magnetic chamber, the "net positive" energy release is not counting all the energy required to power the lasers, just the output of the lasers.

Here's the relevant text from the article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/13/science/nuclear-fusion-energy-breakthrough.html#site-content
Fusion efforts to date have primarily used doughnut-shaped reactors known as tokamaks. Within the reactors, hydrogen gas is heated to temperatures hot enough that the electrons are stripped away from the hydrogen nuclei, creating what is known as a plasma — clouds of positively charged nuclei and negatively charged electrons. Magnetic fields trap the plasma within the doughnut shape, and the nuclei fuse together, releasing energy in the form of neutrons flying outward.

The work at NIF takes a different approach, but so far, little work has gone into turning the idea of a laser fusion power plant into reality. “There are very significant hurdles, not just in the science, but in technology,” Dr. Budil said.

NIF is the world’s most powerful laser, but it is a slow and inefficient one, relying on decades-old technology.
The apparatus, about the size of a sports stadium, is designed to perform basic science experiments, not serve as a prototype for the generation of electricity.

It averages about 10 shots per week. A commercial facility using the laser fusion approach would need much faster lasers, able to shoot at a machine-gun pace, perhaps 10 times a second.

NIF also still consumes far more energy than is produced by the fusion reactions.
Although the latest experiment produced a net energy gain compared to the energy of the 2.05 megajoules in the incoming laser beams, NIF needed to pull 300 megajoules of energy from the electrical grid in order to generate the brief laser pulse.

Other types of lasers are more efficient, but experts say a viable laser fusion power plant would likely require much higher energy gains than the 1.5 observed in this latest fusion shot.
“You’ll need gains of 30 to 100 in order to get more energy for an energy power plant,” Dr. Herrmann said.
 
They need to harness the power of my wife's eyes when I piss her off, she shoots lasers.

Edit: I don't want to come off too critical/anti sciencey, I'm all for the continued advancement of this research, I just think it's disingenuous the reporting that's being done on it. I just heard a top of the hour CBS newscast brief on the radio basically saying we have cold fusion... come on guys, it was a successful experiment but we are no where near breaking even if it's even possible on this planet.
 
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Follow-up article in today's NYT:


Can Fusion Solve the Climate Crisis?​


Scientists made a huge breakthrough on the road to emissions-free power. Here’s what that means, and doesn’t mean.


An illustration of dozens of blue laser beams entering a cylindrical brown capsule through openings at both ends. At the center of the capsule is a single white target pellet.

An illustration of lasers focused on a target pellet. Credit...The National Ignition Facility at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, via Associated Press


By Henry Fountain
Dec. 13, 2022, 11:09 a.m. ET
You’re reading the Climate Forward newsletter, for Times subscribers only. Your must-read guide to the climate crisis. Get it in your inbox.
The news this week that scientists had achieved a breakthrough in fusion technology was hailed as a milestone on the path toward a future of nearly limitless, emissions-free power.

But if you think that means the days of burning fossil fuels for electricity will soon be over, enabling the world to more easily meet the goal of limiting warming this century, you may end up being disappointed.

The breakthrough is a huge step toward a long-held dream, one that has captured the world’s collective imagination: The ability to mimic the way the sun generates the energy that sustains life on Earth, and to control that process for the good of humankind.

The achievement, at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California, “will go down in the history books,” said Energy Secretary Jennifer M. Granholm at a news conference Tuesday.

A remarkable achievement
As my colleague Ken Chang wrote, scientists working on a mammoth experiment at Livermore, in which lasers are used to fuse two forms of hydrogen into helium, reported that, for the first time, it had released more energy than the lasers put in.
That’s a big deal. Scientists around the world have been trying to develop controllable fusion (as opposed to the out-of-control fusion of a hydrogen bomb) for the better part of a century. While there have been many advances, a fundamental stumbling block remained. Fusion requires so much power, with temperatures of millions of degrees needed for it to occur, that none of the experiments produced a net gain of energy.
That hurdle is now out of the way, at least for this kind of laser-instigated fusion. That makes it easier to envision a future of fusion power plants that would produce essentially no planet-warming carbon dioxide or other greenhouse gases. They would also have advantages over current nuclear plants that split, rather than fuse, atoms, because the fuel needed for fusion is more readily available and the radioactive waste produced is far less dangerous and problematic.

… but huge hurdles remain

An experiment like the one at Livermore, in which one tiny pellet was vaporized by 192 laser beams, is one thing, but a power plant that rapidly vaporizes thousands upon thousands of pellets and safely draws off the released energy for conversion into electricity is quite another. That’s not to say it can’t be done, it will just take time. Lots of time.

The same goes for the other major approach to developing fusion, which uses huge, powerful electromagnets to confine a cloud of hydrogen gas stripped of its electrons, raising temperatures to the point where fusion can occur. This is the so-called tokamak approach (taken from a Russian acronym for the doughnut-like chamber that contains the gas cloud).

In 2017, I visited the largest tokamak project, ITER, in southern France. It’s a mind-bogglingly complex machine, a multinational effort being assembled from parts produced in many countries. The project was first envisioned in the 1980s; the hope is that it will produce fusion by the mid-2030s.


But ITER, like the Livermore project, is only an experiment. Even if ITER works, designing and building a plant that captures the energy from a tokamak and converts it to electricity is most likely very far-off.

And the world needs to sharply cut emissions soon. To limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius above 19th-century levels, the stricter of two limits that came out of the 2015 Paris climate talks, emissions need to reach nearly zero by 2050.

So even if fusion power plants become a reality, it likely would not happen in time to help stave off the near-term worsening effects of climate change. It’s far better, many climate scientists and policymakers say, to focus on currently available renewable energy technologies like solar and wind power to help reach these emissions targets.

When could the power start to flow?

So if fusion isn’t a quick climate fix, could it be a more long-term solution to the world’s energy needs? Perhaps, but cost may be an issue. The National Ignition Facility at Livermore, where the experiment was conducted, was built for $3.5 billion. ITER’s price tag, so far, is more than $20 billion. It’s unclear whether the world could afford any fusion power plants that resulted from these two projects.

In recent years there has been a proliferation of private, smaller efforts at developing fusion power, some using alternative approaches. More than 30 companies are working on the technology, about two-thirds of them in the United States, according to the Fusion Industry Association, a trade group. Together they have received nearly $5 billion in private investment.

Of these efforts, Commonwealth Fusion, a company spun off from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, is among the most advanced. As I wrote in 2020, a series of peer-reviewed studies showed that the approach, a much more compact tokamak than ITER that makes use of advances in electromagnet technology, could work.

The company has raised nearly $2 billion, has begun construction of a test reactor outside of Boston, and is developing plans for a fusion power plant as well.

The Fusion Industry Association says that most of the companies involved in these smaller efforts predict that fusion will provide electricity to the grid sometime in the 2030s. That may be an aspirational, rather than realistic, goal. But if fusion power is to become commercially viable and a clean-energy alternative, perhaps it will be through one or more of these efforts.
 
Cool, but they are cooking the books like usual, probably to get more research grant moneys...
Sorry, but I am going to strongly push back against this sentiment and the disparaging of science and scientist efforts. The "vast conspiracy to get more research grants" is mythical and laughable, as is anything like "cooking the books" around fusion. If you take the time to understand the definitions of what was done and what everything really represents technically, what was done is perfectly clear to everyone. Energy positive fusion DID occur in the reactor, and that IS a big deal and IS a first. That's also what has been clearly communicated in the last few days.

System positive fusion remains the long term goal, and that will certainly take lots of time and effort and that didn't happen yet. But just like you don't have a car without building the wheel first, this is the important first step. I am glad we did it first, we should be proud of all the people who poured their lives and energy into doing that.
 
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Sorry, but I am going to strongly push back against this sentiment and the disparaging of science and scientist efforts. The "vast conspiracy to get more research grants" is mythical and laughable, as is anything like "cooking the books" around fusion. If you take the time to understand the definitions of what was done and what everything really represents technically, what was done is perfectly clear to everyone. Energy positive fusion DID occur in the reactor, and that IS a big deal and IS a first. That's also what has been clearly communicated in the last few days.

System positive fusion remains the long term goal, and that will certainly take lots of time and effort and that didn't happen yet. But just like you don't have a car without building the wheel first, this is the important first step. I am glad we did it, we should be proud of all the people who poured their lives and energy into doing that.
In a portion of the reaction. Which is good, which I have said is good. I'm disparaging the scientific "journalists" that are manipulating the experiment
to be better then what it is by ommiting pertinent information. There was not net energy made if you take into account the amount of supporting energy it took to make the experiment possible. Just be truthful and genuine, that's all. Manipulating data to preserve one's funding or gain public support in the scientific community has been going on a long time. Take any industry, like tobacco for example. Isn't the very basis of 'science' being skeptical? And testing others experiments?
 
technology never stops advancing.
200 years ago we rode this
1670969024695.png
a 100 years ago we drove this:
1670969100783.png
today we can drive this:
1670968923608.png
a hundred years from now this should be in the bag, and fusion ubiquitous

1670969354054.png
 
There of course are forces out there that would just as soon this technology never see the light of day in any practical sense....

I doubt if the owners of the dams, the windmills and the makers of solar panels are too keen on this breakthrough.
 
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