AFFTA line weights vs manf stated weights...WTF? (Bass Line)

Josh

Josh

Dead in the water
Staff member
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So, based on various conversations here on the forum, I ordered a SA Bass Bug for my 7wt Echo BAG (awesome rods, BTW). But my local shop has had some troubles getting it in stock, story of the pandemic I suppose.

Last night I was digging around in my fishing cabinet and found a 6wt Rio Outbound. I have no idea why I bought it, probably back when I thought I was going to do more saltwater fly fishing (Spoiler: I never really did). Anyway, the Outbound box says 240gn. Just for the heck of it, I looked up what the 7wt Bass Bug I ordered weighs in at and it's also 240gns. Well cool, right? Lines are fairly similar, 43ft with a short front taper for the Bass Bug and a 37ft head with a slightly longer front taper for the Outbound. But then I looked up what 7wt lines are "supposed" to weigh. According to AFFTA 6wt target is 160gn and 7wt is 185gn. These weights are "first 30ft of line minus the level tip". Bass Bug quoted weights is that same "first 30", but I have no idea about the Outbound. That seems WAY high. Like 2-3 rod weights high.

So....WTF? I admit, I haven't paid much attention to single weight lines over the years. I mostly just buy whatever weight my rod is. I've paid far more attention and experimented more with lines for my two handed rods. I have heard that single hand line weights have trended heavier over the years. But are we at the point that the AFFTA "rules" no longer really matter at all? Are we supposed to "level down" if we don't have the fastest broomstick rods? Or is this just a quirk of looking at aggressive weight forward taper lines designed to turn over big flies?
 
If you are fishing newer rods you don’t have to worry about it. They are also heavier than the manufacturer stated line ratings
 
It’s been that way for awhile.
The AFFTA is a standard or guideline, not an absolute.
Every line doesn’t need conform to those standards.
The OBS is just a integrated shooting head line.
It has been common for years for people to fish shooting heads systems rated at 2-3 line weights heavier then their rod weight. This was long before the integrated lines we have today.
I personally wouldn’t worry too much about it.
SF
 
It went over my head long time ago. The discrepancy in lines/weights and mfger line recommendations for certain rods make you scratch your head at times. Basically some true 6 weight lines are packaged as 5 weight lines and are recommended to go with certain fast action 5 weight rods to slow down the action of the rod...probably because the 5 weight's majority of fishing casting distance is in that 20-50' and there is little to no rod load feel on many fast action rods with a true 5 weight in that range of casting distance. ???

...and also what Stonedfish said.
 
Josh said:
So, based on various conversations here on the forum, I ordered a SA Bass Bug for my 7wt Echo BAG (awesome rods, BTW). But my local shop has had some troubles getting it in stock, story of the pandemic I suppose.

Last night I was digging around in my fishing cabinet and found a 6wt Rio Outbound. I have no idea why I bought it, probably back when I thought I was going to do more saltwater fly fishing (Spoiler: I never really did). Anyway, the Outbound box says 240gn. Just for the heck of it, I looked up what the 7wt Bass Bug I ordered weighs in at and it's also 240gns. Well cool, right? Lines are fairly similar, 43ft with a short front taper for the Bass Bug and a 37ft head with a slightly longer front taper for the Outbound. But then I looked up what 7wt lines are "supposed" to weigh. According to AFFTA 6wt target is 160gn and 7wt is 185gn. These weights are "first 30ft of line minus the level tip". Bass Bug quoted weights is that same "first 30", but I have no idea about the Outbound. That seems WAY high. Like 2-3 rod weights high.

So....WTF? I admit, I haven't paid much attention to single weight lines over the years. I mostly just buy whatever weight my rod is. I've paid far more attention and experimented more with lines for my two handed rods. I have heard that single hand line weights have trended heavier over the years. But are we at the point that the AFFTA "rules" no longer really matter at all? Are we supposed to "level down" if we don't have the fastest broomstick rods? Or is this just a quirk of looking at aggressive weight forward taper lines designed to turn over big flies?
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Well, how does it cast on your 7wt rod ??
 
It does get pretty convoluted. But, you'll probably really like those aggressive lines in the 240gr (30' wt) on that rod for more point and shoot type fishing, which works really well if you want to fish more and cast less. On my 7wt BAG, I'll fish anything from a 200gr-250gr shooting head and it handles them all very well (that said, 240 is right where I really really like for the type of fishing I like to do).

Personally, I've never been one to lose much sleep over all of that...I just pay closer attention to the grain wt vs. the "line" wt depending on the type of fishing I plan on using it for.
 
Josh said:
That seems WAY high. Like 2-3 rod weights high.
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That is exactly what it is.

Josh said:
I have heard that single hand line weights have trended heavier over the years.
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Not really. General purpose line weights haven't changed that much, over the last 10-20 years. The transition from glass to carbon was when things really changed. Specialized lines are a different matter, though. There will always be some wacky new taper being released.

Josh said:
But are we at the point that the AFFTA "rules" no longer really matter at all?
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AFFTA ratings were always irrelevant. It is a dumb standard, used to simplify a complicated problem enough for people to buy things.

Josh said:
Are we supposed to "level down" if we don't have the fastest broomstick rods?
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Yes and no. Rod "action" is another poorly defined concept; you can have a fast action rod that won't throw a heavy line and a slow action rod that will. The idea of overlining fast action rods is usually propagated by misinformed newbies that need more casting practice or just prefer slower action rods. For example, running a 6wt Rio Gold on a "fast action" 5wt will almost always result in the rod struggling to cast the full head. It will give more "feel", on shorter casts, so it makes the newbie happy. However, it is the wrong solution.

You have to put a lot of effort into learning about rod and line tapers, to actually make an informed decision. For the average Joe, buying a fly line is a crapshoot; they buy the most expensive line they can afford, based on the bad advice that your fly line is the most important part of your outfit and you should spend a lot of money on it. By that point, avoiding buyers remorse is a strong incentive to propagate that myth and tell the whole internet that you need the latest DarkMatterWave textured fly line to catch fish.

The reality is that there are basically no bad fly lines anymore, only poorly configured outfits. This is why I don't spend a lot of money on fly lines. Everyone would be better served by spending a few days learning about rod and line tapers, but few actually do that.

IMO, fly rod makers should specify what grain weight window their rods are intended to handle. Beyond that, it is up to the angler to know what taper is ideal for their intended purpose. This makes it very hard to sell things though, so it would never happen.
 
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jaredoconnor said:
IMO, fly rod makers should specify what grain weight window their rods are intended to handle. Beyond that, it is up to the angler to know what taper is ideal for their intended purpose. This makes it very hard to sell things though, so it would never happen.
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I've never understood the practical reason why all rods are designated with a single line wt rather than a range (outside of marketing), since every single rod ever built can handle a pretty wide range of actual line weights.



shit, I was fishing my Steffen glass 5/6wt (I personally like it with a 6wt) last time I was trout fishing. For indi nymphing I'm throwing a line that weighs ~200gr for the first 30'. I didn't have my standard 6wt line in case a hatch came up. well, guess what, I ended up having to use that line for a tiny little dry and it worked great! point being, all of these numbers don't mean shit.
 
jaredoconnor said:
Yes and no. Rod "action" is another poorly defined concept; you can have a fast action rod that won't throw a heavy line and a slow action rod that will. The idea of overlining fast action rods is usually propagated by misinformed newbies that need more casting practice or just prefer slower action rods. For example, running a 6wt Rio Gold on a "fast action" 5wt will almost always result in the rod struggling to cast the full head. It will give more "feel", on shorter casts, so it makes the newbie happy. However, it is the wrong solution.
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People often confuse or combine "action" and "power" and think they're the same thing. The thing most people often are referring to is power, but call it action. Action is really just boiled down to the rod's tip section and how fast or slow it recovers, or how stiff or fast it is. A stiff tip will bend the rest of the rod deeper, or give a slow action. A soft tip will flex the rod more in the upper or mid sections, or give a fast action.

Power is the overall stiffness of the rod, especially in the lower sections.

For the AFFTA or AFTMA line ratings, they refer to only the front 30' of the line, while some line manufacturers will give the weight for the full head, even if it's 40-50+ feet long. Makes it confusing.
 
We were over lining our Sage RPs and RPLs 30+ years ago. Now the line manufacturers do it for us.
The SA Amplitude Trout is as close as it comes to traditional line weight. Spool one of those up on your favorite rod. It can really be an eye opener.
 
Josh said:
So, based on various conversations here on the forum, I ordered a SA Bass Bug for my 7wt Echo BAG (awesome rods, BTW). But my local shop has had some troubles getting it in stock, story of the pandemic I suppose.

Last night I was digging around in my fishing cabinet and found a 6wt Rio Outbound. I have no idea why I bought it, probably back when I thought I was going to do more saltwater fly fishing (Spoiler: I never really did). Anyway, the Outbound box says 240gn. Just for the heck of it, I looked up what the 7wt Bass Bug I ordered weighs in at and it's also 240gns. Well cool, right? Lines are fairly similar, 43ft with a short front taper for the Bass Bug and a 37ft head with a slightly longer front taper for the Outbound. But then I looked up what 7wt lines are "supposed" to weigh. According to AFFTA 6wt target is 160gn and 7wt is 185gn. These weights are "first 30ft of line minus the level tip". Bass Bug quoted weights is that same "first 30", but I have no idea about the Outbound. That seems WAY high. Like 2-3 rod weights high.

So....WTF? I admit, I haven't paid much attention to single weight lines over the years. I mostly just buy whatever weight my rod is. I've paid far more attention and experimented more with lines for my two handed rods. I have heard that single hand line weights have trended heavier over the years. But are we at the point that the AFFTA "rules" no longer really matter at all? Are we supposed to "level down" if we don't have the fastest broomstick rods? Or is this just a quirk of looking at aggressive weight forward taper lines designed to turn over big flies?
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Haha yup. Gets tricky and convoluded for sure.

Quick answer to not repeat good points made previously - that outbound 6 may work well enough for you on the BAG. I like the newer lines like the bass bug and titan long for the additional handling section toward the back but the outbound will be pretty similar, definitely more so if you’re trying to make a quick shot and not trying to hold up the whole head before casting. Give it a go and let us know you’re opinion on it!
 
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Yeah - I look at "weight" for both rods and lines as being guidelines, not definitions. I have a number of rods that I use as if they were a different weight than indicated on their blanks.
I've mentioned this in another thread; I keep a spreadsheet of rods, reels, spools, and lines, and any info that helps me match them up to what I want to do that day. (To be upfront - I like toys! I have lots. Upwards of 30 lines in current rotation. It's cheaper than therapy.) I find the actual grain weights of the lines - or heads, or both if available - and add that info for each line. Grain ranges that each rod seems to like are noted, as are specific observations ("Titan Long WF7F for salt poppers, small bass stuff on Loomis IM6. Ok on 8wt BAG. Try on EXS?")
Like most of life, you should gather info and opinions, but it comes down to what works for you.
Personally, I swap rods, reels, lines around almost every time I fish. All part of the game for me.
 
jaredoconnor said:
IMO, fly rod makers should specify what grain weight window their rods are intended to handle. Beyond that, it is up to the angler to know what taper is ideal for their intended purpose. This makes it very hard to sell things though, so it would never happen.
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tldr this is the bottom line. Every rod is going to have a grain window it can cast effectively. Line taper and caster preferences determine where in that window you want to be.

As for lines like the OBS or other modern extreme WF lines, they are designed to load the rod with minimal line in the air. So for a 70' cast you need 30' of line in the air and you shoot 40'. For a traditional WF line the head is likely 40' and to make a 70' cast you are likely putting 40-50' of line in the air. That 40-50' of line is going to weigh way more than the AFFTA standard for 30' of line. The OBS is shrinking that full line weight in to a 30' so you can load the rod and shoot with minimal false casts.

But like jared said, it really depends on the line taper, desired performance (short distance, long distance, heavy fly, delicate presentation, etc), and casting preferences. I personally like a fast/short casting stroke, so for say dry flies I'm happy with a pretty traditionally weight line even on super fast modern rods. But if someone has a slower casting stroke (or wants more feel) and is determined to buy the super fast modern rod, they will likely prefer a heavier line because it will slow the action down. It's not necessarily that the rod manufacturer built the rod too powerful, it could be that the caster bought a rod that didn't fit their casting style.

In the end you just have to figure out what line weight and taper you like on a given rod. It can be frustrating because it's pretty expensive to experiment.
 
Northern said:
Yeah - I look at "weight" for both rods and lines as being guidelines, not definitions. I have a number of rods that I use as if they were a different weight than indicated on their blanks.
I've mentioned this in another thread; I keep a spreadsheet of rods, reels, spools, and lines, and any info that helps me match them up to what I want to do that day. (To be upfront - I like toys! I have lots. Upwards of 30 lines in current rotation. It's cheaper than therapy.) I find the actual grain weights of the lines - or heads, or both if available - and add that info for each line. Grain ranges that each rod seems to like are noted, as are specific observations ("Titan Long WF7F for salt poppers, small bass stuff on Loomis IM6. Ok on 8wt BAG. Try on EXS?")
Like most of life, you should gather info and opinions, but it comes down to what works for you.
Personally, I swap rods, reels, lines around almost every time I fish. All part of the game for me.
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I wish I was that organized! I love the idea of keeping a spreadsheet of weights and what works best where. Great idea!

I've been thinking about a Titan Long for my 7wt streamer/bass rig. You like it?
 
How in the hell can you all enjoy fishing with a fly rod when you all over think what you are doing.
 
Northern said:
Yeah - I look at "weight" for both rods and lines as being guidelines, not definitions. I have a number of rods that I use as if they were a different weight than indicated on their blanks.
I've mentioned this in another thread; I keep a spreadsheet of rods, reels, spools, and lines, and any info that helps me match them up to what I want to do that day. (To be upfront - I like toys! I have lots. Upwards of 30 lines in current rotation. It's cheaper than therapy.) I find the actual grain weights of the lines - or heads, or both if available - and add that info for each line. Grain ranges that each rod seems to like are noted, as are specific observations ("Titan Long WF7F for salt poppers, small bass stuff on Loomis IM6. Ok on 8wt BAG. Try on EXS?")
Like most of life, you should gather info and opinions, but it comes down to what works for you.
Personally, I swap rods, reels, lines around almost every time I fish. All part of the game for me.
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Yup totally agree. Try this line on that rod and vice versa. I have 6wt lines I like on b2x 8wt (cause it’s super soft). Fun stuff for sure
 
Old Man said:
How in the hell can you all enjoy fishing with a fly rod when you all over think what you are doing.
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um, how long have you been around other fly fishers and fly tyers? we all over think things...unless we don't.

but yeah, point taken....you not only old, but you're pretty wise too.

Hell, I'm on about the 67th iteration of my own tiger musky pattern tweaking little things here and there and then going back to the basics, then tweaking some more....lol.
 
One last thing I'll add. Even if you have a standard for lines and everyone adhered to it, it still won't make a difference.
The reason is is because not all rods are created the same. Take 6 wts for example. Some might actually be 7's in disguise while others may fall more towards a 5 wt. Some are high line speed, distance, fast, medium fast, tip flex, slow blah, blah blah.......Now add in glass, bamboo and try to come up with something that is standardized and works perfectly for all of those. Good luck!
Personally, I like all the choices that are available today.
SF
 
If your lucky enough to have a fly shop near by many of them offer demo lines that you can try out for a week or on a trip. Stop by tell them your outfit and see what they have to offer. Usually can check out a couple lines at a time. The only thing is if you do that and find a line you really like…. then please order that line from that shop that helped you out, don’t go online and order from someone else…. ;)

The value of a brick and mortar fly shop is a valuable resource not only for gear and
correctly outfitting you, but intel…. something you never get at a big box store.
 
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