"This Lake's Fisheries are Managed Stupidly"

Divad

Divad

Whitefish
I've come to love Tyler's content, from the in-depth analysis of thermocline and fish response, to touchy topics like this on fishery management.

I know most of us have a story of a lake that once used to be great fishing until X, Y or Z.



(Although its a video, the content on this one can be easily listened to w/o watching.)
 
Noted Canadian fisheries biologist William Ricker summed up fisheries management quite nicely when he said, "Fisheries management isn't rocket science. It's much more complicated."

It's nice to have an opinion about what might be best but there's a lot of unknowns in lake management like winter kill, solar heating in summer, and variable fishing pressure to name a few. Fisheries managers do their best. They aren't making a concerted effort to cause harm. They will though attempt certain measures to discover what results might be found. That's what science does and what works here may not work there. Nothing is certain.
 
I sure hope he's shared the wisdom of his smarter lake management strategy with the regional WDFW office. Although I don't know why there is a 25 fish limit on perch, I'm curious why he thinks removing that limit will improve the fishery. His working hypothesis appears to be that anglers will help by fishing and removing large quantities of under-sized perch. I think they won't bother. Those anglers who do fish for perch will do just as he is and hygrade and keep the larger ones to take home. I do my best to avoid fishing lakes that have stunted populations of anything, perch, brook trout, or whatever. I like the idea of stocking larger predator fish to try and reduce the perch population. I know that WDFW has tried in the past with introducing larger brown trout to forage on over-populated and stunted brook trout, while making it illegal to retain the brown trout. I don't know how that has worked out. Wouldn't be surprised if anglers just kept the brown trout anyway, even if it defeats the purpose of reducing the stunted fish population.

Progress begins with constructive criticism followed by the "better idea" for improved management. And that better idea also needs to be realistic. As Paul points out in his post above, the rules simplification process demonstrates that sometimes policy over rules biology, and that policy for simpler rules comes from some of "us," the public segment that dislikes complex fishing regulations. We can't always have it both ways.
 
Is that Curlew Lake in that video?

If it is, that lake is full of perch and tons of stunted largies.

For some reason the state decided to plant Kokanee in there from what I've heard, but I don't know if they have done well in that lake.
 
Salmo_g said:
I sure hope he's shared the wisdom of his smarter lake management strategy with the regional WDFW office. Although I don't know why there is a 25 fish limit on perch, I'm curious why he thinks removing that limit will improve the fishery. His working hypothesis appears to be that anglers will help by fishing and removing large quantities of under-sized perch. I think they won't bother. Those anglers who do fish for perch will do just as he is and hygrade and keep the larger ones to take home. I do my best to avoid fishing lakes that have stunted populations of anything, perch, brook trout, or whatever. I like the idea of stocking larger predator fish to try and reduce the perch population. I know that WDFW has tried in the past with introducing larger brown trout to forage on over-populated and stunted brook trout, while making it illegal to retain the brown trout. I don't know how that has worked out. Wouldn't be surprised if anglers just kept the brown trout anyway, even if it defeats the purpose of reducing the stunted fish population.

Progress begins with constructive criticism followed by the "better idea" for improved management. And that better idea also needs to be realistic. As Paul points out in his post above, the rules simplification process demonstrates that sometimes policy over rules biology, and that policy for simpler rules comes from some of "us," the public segment that dislikes complex fishing regulations. We can't always have it both ways.
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I for one do not think rule simplification is necessary and is probably a root to many of these issues. Nor do I think a blanket approach should of ever been conceived in the first place. But I would venture to guess it roots many problems, in which these videos discussing that offers such criticism. Surprisingly, WDFW members have replied to his videos and he responds.

What I value is his want to stay public with the conversation and not sidebar it to a phonecall with the state or an email with a "We will look into that" response. I hope this encourages a 1 on 1 video with Tyler and WDFW to discuss the matter.

@Matt Paluch he has an undergrad and masters in fisheries management/ecology, and has worked for the state in this regard in the past, I believe this gives him clout. But I'll bite, I've shared this sentiment for a long time w/o actually learning, over the last 2 years I've volunteered many times with the Chehalis Basin Task Force, TB and WDFW to help my understanding, but I still don't know enough. In a gross simplification of your statement, it doesn't take a vet to know a dog or a doctor to know a cut, we all can contribute to the discussion. We all are paying for it.
 
johnnyboy said:
Is that Curlew Lake in that video?

If it is, that lake is full of perch and tons of stunted largies.

For some reason the state decided to plant Kokanee in there from what I've heard, but I don't know if they have done well in that lake.
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In the first part of the video, he said he was at Fish Lake in eastern Washington.
 
Divad said:
I for one do not think rule simplification is necessary and is probably a root to many of these issues. Nor do I think a blanket approach should of ever been conceived in the first place. But I would venture to guess it roots many problems, in which these videos discussing that offers such criticism. Surprisingly, WDFW members have replied to his videos and he responds.

What I value is his want to stay public with the conversation and not sidebar it to a phonecall with the state or an email with a "We will look into that" response. I hope this encourages a 1 on 1 video with Tyler and WDFW to discuss the matter.

@Matt Paluch he has an undergrad and masters in fisheries management/ecology, and has worked for the state in this regard in the past, I believe this gives him clout. But I'll bite, I've shared this sentiment for a long time w/o actually learning, over the last 2 years I've volunteered many times with the Chehalis Basin Task Force, TB and WDFW to help my understanding, but I still don't know enough. In a gross simplification of your statement, it doesn't take a vet to know a dog or a doctor to know a cut, we all can contribute to the discussion. We all are paying for it.
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OK. I'd like to know where he gets the idea that putting no limit on the perch would have any effect on the population in Fish Lake. I'm unaware of any situation where the fishing community ever had a significant impact on perch population. There are effective methods for eliminating perch, which mainly consist of poisoning them out of the lake and starting fresh - or you can manage for mixed species over the long run which often has periods where perch will overpopulate and then die off, then stabilize. Managing for mixed species doesn't always work, so there's not really any way to guarantee a controlled population of perch in this ecosystem. You have to remember that most people really suck at fishing, so eliminating the limit wouldn't do anything when most people aren't catching their limits to begin with.
 
Matt Paluch said:
OK. I'd like to know where he gets the idea that putting no limit on the perch would have any effect on the population in Fish Lake. I'm unaware of any situation where the fishing community ever had a significant impact on perch population. There are effective methods for eliminating perch, which mainly consist of poisoning them out of the lake and starting fresh - or you can manage for mixed species over the long run which often has periods where perch will overpopulate and then die off, then stabilize. Managing for mixed species doesn't always work, so there's not really any way to guarantee a controlled population of perch in this ecosystem. You have to remember that most people really suck at fishing, so eliminating the limit wouldn't do anything when most people aren't catching their limits to begin with.
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I don't think he was saying getting rid of the limit would reduce the population, but instead, since lifting the limit wouldn't change anything, why have a limit at all? I could be wrong though, I kind of watched it half hearted because I've seen a few of his videos before and felt like he over simplifies things pretty regularly to suit his point of view. This video is a prime example - he wants to catch more perch, so he makes a case that the lake is managed wrong and there shouldn't be a limit so he can catch more perch.
 
There is a small lake I fish from time to time that the bucket brigade planted with largemouth bass a long time ago and they are thriving. I know some of the locals well around this lake and access it through their property. Every few years the locals start talking about how there aren’t bass in there anymore because SoandSo didn’t catch anything the last time he fished.

Some days on this lake in the summer you get bass on a popper every cast and some days you couldn’t catch a single thing on bait. Sometimes the fish are here sometimes they are there. Sometimes they are hibernating. Things that used to work don’t work as well now and I don’t know why.

I tend to think people’s catching experiences are a poor metric for the quality of fish and fishing on a lake. Lakes change over time a lot more than people realize and fish can be finicky. People are often set in their ways and places of fishing a lake and don’t adapt.
 
Long_Rod_Silvers said:
I don't think he was saying getting rid of the limit would reduce the population, but instead, since lifting the limit wouldn't change anything, why have a limit at all? I could be wrong though, I kind of watched it half hearted because I've seen a few of his videos before and felt like he over simplifies things pretty regularly to suit his point of view. This video is a prime example - he wants to catch more perch, so he makes a case that the lake is managed wrong and there shouldn't be a limit so he can catch more perch.
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He did say that people should be able to kill the little perch and leave them on the bank for wildlife - a tremendously bad idea. Then he talks about his theories about the mix of fish to plant and how they should put bigger trout in to feed on the perch. I've seen lakes with big trout get overrun by perch, and I think I remember reading a study showing a population of large trout was ineffective at controlling perch, as the trout still focused mostly on insect food sources. His whole video was basically knee-jerk reaction because he wasn't happy about the size of perch he was catching, and like most of the gear fishermen, he throws blame at WDFW first and without too much thought. These kinds of videos don't help anything.
 
Not related to the lake in the video, but some lakes in general.
I know some folks bitch about the lack of planting in some species.
I also know folks like to just catch fish, regardless of the size.
Myself, I’d rather catch quality over quantity and feel some lakes just have too many fish planted in them regardless of the fishing regulations.
You’ll never make everyone happy when it comes to fisheries management.
SF
 
I shared this video with WDFW Region 2 staff (who manage Fish Lake). They were already well aware of this guy's videos and thoughts about management. They have even offered on multiple occasions to chat with him about why various lakes are managed the way that they are, and he's refused to talk with them.

Regarding the 25 fish limit, I'll share exactly what they told me: "The fact of the matter is we’ve tried to at least twice and maybe three times since 2010 to remove the 25 fish daily limit at Fish Lake because the regulation isn’t working. The most recent attempt was during the rule simplification in 2018 when we first tried to remove all restrictive panfish regulations statewide. That proposal was met with very strong public opposition. We also proposed maintaining restrictive panfish regulations in our most important waters like Potholes, Moses, etc. and remove the others, but that wasn’t very welcomed either. So, in the end we were directed to retain all special panfish regulations that were in place in 2018. If and when WDFW opens a rule making process, we’ll take another swing at removing the 25 fish limit at Fish Lake. However, as you mentioned, removing that daily limit is unlikely to have any impact. Fish Lake is very large, the yellow perch population is likely huge, and anglers probably couldn’t harvest enough fish to improve average size. Anglers don’t really want to harvest 25 <6” perch and so they likely aren’t gonna harvest more than 25. Plus, Yellow Perch are notorious for overpopulating and stunting."

The fact that this guy refuses to meet with WDFW biologists and fisheries managers tells me he's in it for the likes rather than actually doing anything to help the situation he's complaining about.
 
Matt Paluch said:
I shared this video with WDFW Region 2 staff (who manage Fish Lake). They were already well aware of this guy's videos and thoughts about management. They have even offered on multiple occasions to chat with him about why various lakes are managed the way that they are, and he's refused to talk with them.

Regarding the 25 fish limit, I'll share exactly what they told me: "The fact of the matter is we’ve tried to at least twice and maybe three times since 2010 to remove the 25 fish daily limit at Fish Lake because the regulation isn’t working. The most recent attempt was during the rule simplification in 2018 when we first tried to remove all restrictive panfish regulations statewide. That proposal was met with very strong public opposition. We also proposed maintaining restrictive panfish regulations in our most important waters like Potholes, Moses, etc. and remove the others, but that wasn’t very welcomed either. So, in the end we were directed to retain all special panfish regulations that were in place in 2018. If and when WDFW opens a rule making process, we’ll take another swing at removing the 25 fish limit at Fish Lake. However, as you mentioned, removing that daily limit is unlikely to have any impact. Fish Lake is very large, the yellow perch population is likely huge, and anglers probably couldn’t harvest enough fish to improve average size. Anglers don’t really want to harvest 25 <6” perch and so they likely aren’t gonna harvest more than 25. Plus, Yellow Perch are notorious for overpopulating and stunting."

The fact that this guy refuses to meet with WDFW biologists and fisheries managers tells me he's in it for the likes rather than actually doing anything to help the situation he's complaining about.
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Well he did say he does NOT want to go the e-mail route and the phone call is maybe only marginally better. I don’t want to speak for him though.

I’d ask you please make this discussion public and why not OFFER to do it on his channel? Step towards furthering the puck longterm to a cohesive discussion. Don’t go bringing the pack but 1 on 1.

It would be a win-win for everyone. @Matt Paluch do you think that is a reasonable ask? I’m honestly curious as I don’t ever find content creators dabbling in WDFW interviews but that may be because of a lack of demand (nobody reaching out).
 
How about a little 1 on 1 discussion while you both ice fish? He films it, you share a thermos of coffee and let’s be honest the time/coffee/travel will all get comp’d.

I’d be friggin honored to see my tax dollars working in such a manner, no joke, comp away 🫡!
 
Divad said:
Well he did say he does NOT want to go the e-mail route and the phone call is maybe only marginally better. I don’t want to speak for him though.

I’d ask you please make this discussion public and why not OFFER to do it on his channel? Step towards furthering the puck longterm to a cohesive discussion. Don’t go bringing the pack but 1 on 1.

It would be a win-win for everyone. @Matt Paluch do you think that is a reasonable ask? I’m honestly curious as I don’t ever find content creators dabbling in WDFW interviews but that may be because of a lack of demand (nobody reaching out).
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So I offered to set up a meeting, and he hasn't responded. I also shared a study that analyzing brook trout populations prior to and after a yellow perch introduction. He deleted that comment. He also told me that I don't know very much about science when I pointed out that the studies he shared don't relate to his ideas really well. The guy is grandstanding hoping the general public is too dumb or too lazy to actually check whether the science supports anything he's proposing.

Just so anyone here has the option to see why his idea about planting large trout is not very good, here's a study to review: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...&isAllowed=y&usg=AOvVaw2OJHC3laZKM7-Oc6VOxSYj
 
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