Charging people for backcountry rescue?

Josh

Josh

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As someone who bought a satellite rescue beacon after dislocating a finger while fishing alone in the backcountry (and realizing it could have been far worse), I have thought about what comes after pressing the "save me" button. And I happened to run across this article today on why we don't (or shouldn't, it's a bit of an opinion piece) charge people for backcountry rescue.

www.cascadiadaily.com

Why don't we charge for backcountry rescues? | Cascadia Daily News

Some are egregious
www.cascadiadaily.com www.cascadiadaily.com

The fellow makes a few good points. Especially about the training value of Navy teams providing helicopter support. That said, it is really hard to not let the blood boil a bit when you read about morons like this:

First, there were the Wyoming incidents. Two snowmobilers from Michigan were rescued after illegally riding into a clearly demarcated Wilderness Area, an area where these kinds of machines are not allowed. That’s when they got stuck. Teton County Search and Rescue deployed a helicopter to retrieve them.

Three days later when the men went back to retrieve their sleds, they called for help again. In an attempt to get back to the machines, they got stuck in a steep drainage and a helicopter was once again required to pull them out.
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And as the article mentions, those of us who go out of bounds have always seen these signs around here.

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But on the other hand, do we really want people getting financially ruined for what may be a legitimate bit of bad luck that requires a rescue? I would say "no". I view it as a public service for both us and for nature. I'd rather a lost person call for a rescue than start a forest fire trying to keep warm (a thing that has happened). I hate the idea of us having to pay for idiots being negligent. But the article brings up a good point about "Who gets to decide what’s negligent and what isn’t?" Do we really want to have to have "rescue court" where everyone's decision making gets judged by a jury of their outdoor peers?

While it chaps my hide to read about idiots like the snowmobilers above, I think I'd rather call backcountry rescue a public service, deal with the annoyance, and have the minor expense of chipping as a society in for helicopter fuel and whatnot.
 
Josh said:
As someone who bought a satellite rescue beacon after dislocating a finger while fishing alone in the backcountry (and realizing it could have been far worse), I have thought about what comes after pressing the "save me" button. And I happened to run across this article today on why we don't (or shouldn't, it's a bit of an opinion piece) charge people for backcountry rescue.

www.cascadiadaily.com

Why don't we charge for backcountry rescues? | Cascadia Daily News

Some are egregious
www.cascadiadaily.com www.cascadiadaily.com

The fellow makes a few good points. Especially about the training value of Navy teams providing helicopter support. That said, it is really hard to not let the blood boil a bit when you read about morons like this:



And as the article mentions, those of us who go out of bounds have always seen these signs around here.

View attachment 11768

But on the other hand, do we really want people getting financially ruined for what may be a legitimate bit of bad luck that requires a rescue? I would say "no". I view it as a public service for both us and for nature. I'd rather a lost person call for a rescue than start a forest fire trying to keep warm (a thing that has happened). I hate the idea of us having to pay for idiots being negligent. But the article brings up a good point about "Who gets to decide what’s negligent and what isn’t?" Do we really want to have to have "rescue court" where everyone's decision making gets judged by a jury of their outdoor peers?

While it chaps my hide to read about idiots like the snowmobilers above, I think I'd rather call backcountry rescue a public service, deal with the annoyance, and have the minor expense of chipping in for helicopter fuel and whatnot.
Click to expand...

This is going to be an interesting thread--at least a mod started it, ha!

But in all seriousness, I have one of the Garmins, as we're at times 10+ miles in with what was a toddler, now big ole kid--so its a bit of a security blanket. With that being said, if you hit the SOS on that thing, they charge you! Unless you have the plan where they don't. Which I'm ok with. There's every opportunity for people to "insure" themselves for backcountry rescue expenses, why should the public have to foot your bill when you could have safe guarded yourself?
 
As Jim Travers would say, "Look, ain't none of us getting outa' here alive!" (Except maybe Jim Travers.) I've long been content with the notion that I might get injured or die in the wilderness. I think that is preferable to ending up dying in some hospital with a bunch of tubes sticking in and out of my body everywhere. If I end up as bear scat, so what? I just really don't want a bear to begin chomping on me before I'm dead.

I think I'm OK with not charging people for wilderness rescue. At the same time, I'm a strong believer that stupidity should hurt. So instead of a rescue court, I'm all for the idea of having a "stupidity court." This court would weight the evidence and if someone requests a rescue due to their personal stupidity, then the court would decide to not sent out a rescue team. Let the stupid self-rescue if they can, and if they die instead, then consider their debt for doing something stupid paid in full. That shouldn't be controversial, should it?
 
If we are going to charge people for rescue with the mountain of tax dollars our agencies collect then we should be charging the morbidly obese for their rides to the hospital, drug addicts for the same, and homeowners when they burn their houses down and the fire department responds. I think if you aren't being a jackass one free one is in order. There is a mountain of wasted resources and to single this out when it's likely people paying into said system is silly. Are the drug addicts paying for their medical response and narcan? Not a chance, but let's financially ruin the guy who breaks a femur in the backcountry due to a rock slide. And spare me the rescuers risk argument. I was the rescuer and did that job without question of duty as I signed up for it.
 
As I recall, there was a similar thread in the old place, and I kind of waffled. I really don't think folks should be charged for legitimate rescues; however, there are some instances that get my goat. When I was a Mont Tremblent, I was called out on more than one occasion in the middle of the night for SnR for some kid, only to be told later the kid had gone to a friend's house and not notified anyone - however, at the same time, hate the thought that someone delays calling for help, just waiting for news, also, we were always thrilled that the kid was safe - was also a volunteer firefighter for a couple of years - always showed up to the fire, never questioned why or who should pay, though sometimes you shake your head when the fire was started on Christmas Eve by an idiot putting a lit candle on his TV set, then falling asleep drunk - kinda babbling on here and really waffling again ... Bottom line, I think I don't think folks should be charged unless they're repeat offenders of great stupidity and rule breaking, ie, going beyond the "don't go beyond this fence" or trying to bathe in the "don't bathe in the thermal pools" pools.

Cheers
 
Here in Colorado there is no charge for backcountry SAR no matter the stupidity involved. Fishing and hunting licenses, off road vehicle, snowmobile and boat registrations include a fee that goes into a state SAR fund that can be used to reimburse agencies for their SAR costs. And the public can donate to the fund by buying a SAR card for $3 a year. The fund does not cover costs like medical transport.
 
We had to call the FD for smoke smell in the house. It turned out it was the a/c fan, and we apologized to the firemen who were pretty clear that they would rather come out for a small concern than wait until we saw flames. I don't want people who are lost or injured to delay getting help because they're afraid of getting charged for the rescue. Especially since if they're lost or injured now, they'll be just as lost and injured (or worse) when they can't wait any longer to call.

I think it's the egregious events, like the snowmobilers, that get our attention but most examples are just average folks. However, the snowmobilers should get nailed for what they actually did wrong, not for getting stuck.
 
Where I live in NH there are two options. You can buy a voluntary Hike Safe pass for $ 25/year. If you have one, you don't get charged for a rescue. The second option is to hope for a non-stupid emergency. If you go hiking in flip flops and hurt your ankle, that is stupid. If you go hiking without a flash light, water, or compass and get lost that is stupid. If you are prepared for conditions and have an accident that is not stupid.
You can fix everything but stupid so why shouldn't knuckleheads be responsible for their own actions.
NH Fish and Game charges for rescuing when stupid!
 
Dustin Chromers said:
If we are going to charge people for rescue with the mountain of tax dollars our agencies collect then we should be charging the morbidly obese for their rides to the hospital, drug addicts for the same, and homeowners when they burn their houses down and the fire department responds. I think if you aren't being a jackass one free one is in order. There is a mountain of wasted resources and to single this out when it's likely people paying into said system is silly. Are the drug addicts paying for their medical response and narcan? Not a chance, but let's financially ruin the guy who breaks a femur in the backcountry due to a rock slide. And spare me the rescuers risk argument. I was the rescuer and did that job without question of duty as I signed up for it.
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Agree 100 percent except the rescuers risk part. Watching dudes get lowered from a helicopter onto a small sailboat, or into the ocean has significant risk. I understand they chose to take that risk, but if it’s because some tool didn’t check the weather or thought he could sail the coast in a 20’ POS then that’s crap.
 
I worked for the National Park Service for 35 years and retired 16 years ago. To the best of my knowledge, no one was ever charged for Search and Rescue or for emergency services, though many should have been. The problem from the agency point of view is that those services are not budgeted items, so the money needs to come from somewhere at the end of the year to balance the budget. Maybe the roads don’t get repaired or buildings don’t get painted or seasonals don’t get hired. Rescue costs are not inconsequential, especially if helicopters are required. Even way back then, I remember single rescues that cost $70k and annual costs of $250k. Currently many costs are avoided by requesting assistance from volunteer groups or utilizing military helicopters.

The agencies are probably going to continue to pick up these costs, but in certain instances, the beneficiary of these services should be billed. I remember spending several hours trying to rescue a horse that slid off the trail 1/2 mile outside our boundary. And 12-15 employees carrying out someone who purposely left his heart medication at home and decided to go hiking at high altitude because it was such a nice day. Or the fellow under the influence of mj who drove a bus head on into a motorcycle club and killed 4 people and seriously injured 2 more. The roadway was blocked for hours and dozens of employees were involved.
 
I guess my thinking could be changed since I haven't given it much thought. In my mind, if you're going to play, then you should be prepared to pay. It never occurred to me that you could get hurt in the middle of nowhere, and not have to pay for rescue. Like I said, maybe I haven't really thought it through.
 
Sometimes shit just happens. Many moons ago, backpacked in the Warner Mountains up to a 7500' lake with a buddy in mid June, eighty degrees, third morning we woke up in the dark to a collapsing tent, 2' of snow on the ground at dawn with a 50 degree temp drop...a fast moving out of season Artic low had moved in and collided with the warm moist air... What had been a 7 hour hike up was a 12 hour hike down that we split into two days...exhausting and freezing, powering through the snow with just zip-on leg pants and nylon shells over sweatshirts, zip lock bags that had held our food for gloves. We were in our early 30's, uber fit surfers who also biked and hiked a bunch, and it was still tough sledding getting out.
Newspapers (pre internet) that week were full of stories of just how many folks had to be rescued in the high country of northern California, and of a couple that died from exposure.
Dehydration is always the enemy of the casual hiker. Leave unprepared, get lost, get dehydrated and confused, make mistakes, have zero survival skills....charge for a rescue, when the states and feds spend billions on the most ridiculous crap? Wouldn't get my vote...stupidity isn't a crime, it's just an increasingly common problem in a society that thinks there is a phone app for everything...
 
This is a timely post, Josh, as in the last 24 hrs, I have spoken to two friends about the wisdom of doing a 5-6 day solo float/fishing/camping trip on a Class 1 & 2 river (I have rowed Class 4). I do know that conventional wisdom is that one should always have a buddy in the outdoors. However, I also know plenty of people who do high level solo expedition trips, both on land and at sea. Heck, I have done up to two week solo backpacking/fishing trips and other solo paddling trips. So, a semi-wilderness solo float trip (I know there will be other people on the river at the same time) doesn’t seem that stupid. Until it is. Sure, I have an emergency beacon, Swiftwater rescue training, Wilderness First Aid/Responder training, but accidents happen and if it does, my solo trip will seem stupid to most people.

Some countries charge for all rescues, stupid or not. When doing outdoor activities overseas, I research the local situation; a few times, I’ve even joined foreign hiking clubs to be covered by their rescue insurance. I am not sure if these pay-for-rescue schemes reduce stupidity though as when I joined a couple of the foreign clubs’ trips, I could not believe the lack of skills, safety protocol and lack of proper equipment that some/most club members had. The Mountaineers, who are very safety conscious club, would have had a heart attack if they saw what I saw!
 
Canuck from Kansas said:
hate the thought that someone delays calling for help, just waiting for news,
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^^^
This is my thought, and that of most in the volunteer rescue community.

I was in Mountain Rescue for 14 years. In all that time, exactly two missions in our AoR (Southern Cascades, MNRP) were for other climbers, one for a backcountry skier, one plane crash. Most missions were for lost hunters. Often we did not know about an upcoming mission before midnight prior to deployment. We kept our go packs ready. I was fortunate to have an agreement with my management who supported volunteer rescue orgs but I had to use PTO or unpaid TO. In the days before cell phones Mrs Brian would call in to let them know I was deployed. Labor shortages today might not allow that.
USAF and USA usually provided air support. They charged it as training time, because they would have had to spend the same amount of time on training missions flying in the same terrain.

Airborne.jpg

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Searching.jpg

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Josh said:
That said, it is really hard to not let the blood boil a bit when you read about morons like this:
First, there were the Wyoming incidents. Two snowmobilers from Michigan were rescued after illegally riding into a clearly demarcated Wilderness Area, an area where these kinds of machines are not allowed. That’s when they got stuck. Teton County Search and Rescue deployed a helicopter to retrieve them.

Three days later when the men went back to retrieve their sleds, they called for help again. In an attempt to get back to the machines, they got stuck in a steep drainage and a helicopter was once again required to pull them out.
Click to expand...

I do admit I am torn about egregious (stupid/illegal activity)
 
Brian Miller said:
I was in Mountain Rescue for 14 years. In all that time, exactly two missions in our AoR (Southern Cascades, MNRP) were for other climbers, one for a backcountry skier, one plane crash. Most missions were for lost hunters. Often we did not know about an upcoming mission before midnight prior to deployment. We kept our go packs ready. I was fortunate to have an agreement with my management who supported volunteer rescue orgs but I had to use PTO or unpaid TO. In the days before cell phones Mrs Brian would call in to let them know I was deployed. Labor shortages today might not allow that.
USAF and USA usually provided air support. They charged it as training time, because they would have had to spend the same amount of time on training missions flying in the same terrain.
Click to expand...

Oh, *and most of the missions searches I participated in were searches where subjects were found by one of the several other ESAR, Canine SAR, or ORV teams. There was only one mission where my organization-team actually found, packaged, and evac'd a live patient. There were a couple of body recovery missions with multiple deceased subjects. With the exception of one VIP at MNRP, govt air assets were not authorized to fly out deceased subjects, so they had to be carried out to a road.*
*edited after coming across my records. It was many yrs ago.
 
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Wow, @Brian Miller, what a difficult job that must have been!

kind of going offwhat @Dustin Chromers posted…. Doctors have to operate on known murderers and drunk drivers who killed people. Firefighters would have to rescue anyone who stupidly caught their house on fire by trying to deep fry a turkey in their living room so it feels a bit related. And the skiers and hikers aren’t criminals. So maybe a fine for going outside posted areas that are known to be dangerous. But like it was mentioned by @PhilR and @Canuck from Kansas …i would hate that someone would risk going without rescue when they needed it because they were afraid of the cost.

I don’t see how it’s possible to fairly decide how/when to assess fines or fees for stupidity. ( Hell….as it is, for many years we have been rewarding stupidity by electing it to Congress.)
 
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Someone told me that his buddy's boat broke down offshore. He got rescued by the Coast Guard. Then they sent him a bill a few weeks later. Hahaha. No.
 
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