Dismantling of the USFS

Status
Not open for further replies.
I wasn't complaining about people's high wages. I think it's great and people should make as much as they can. But when it comes to the federal budget and our whatv39 trillion in debt. Cuts and deep ones need to be made and eliminating duplicate responsibility/expenses is very low hanging fruit.
Given that the forest service represents about 5-6% of the USDA's budget which represents about 3% of the federal budget, I doubt that you will find a whole lot of success going after the redundency you believe to be a big problem. Our federal budget issue has very little to do with the number of or salaries of federal employees. Employee costs are roughly 10% of the federal budget.

If you are intersted, this article does a good job of detailing how much the Fed's pay in labor: https://www.pgpf.org/article/how-much-do-we-spend-on-the-federal-workforce/
 
Given that the forest service represents about 5-6% of the USDA's budget which represents about 3% of the federal budget, I doubt that you will find a whole lot of success going after the redundency you believe to be a big problem. Our federal budget issue has very little to do with the number of or salaries of federal employees. Employee costs are roughly 10% of the federal budget.

If you are intersted, this article does a good job of detailing how much the Fed's pay in labor: https://www.pgpf.org/article/how-much-do-we-spend-on-the-federal-workforce/
Why i said it was the very low hanging fruit
 
In other local news discover passes are up in price and local DNR land are to close due to funding shortfalls. Apparently a lack of timber sale revenue is coming home to roost. I wonder how that happened?
 
Given that the forest service represents about 5-6% of the USDA's budget which represents about 3% of the federal budget, I doubt that you will find a whole lot of success going after the redundency you believe to be a big problem. Our federal budget issue has very little to do with the number of or salaries of federal employees. Employee costs are roughly 10% of the federal budget.

If you are intersted, this article does a good job of detailing how much the Fed's pay in labor: https://www.pgpf.org/article/how-much-do-we-spend-on-the-federal-workforce/
Good article. However the real “stick in the mud” aspect of this is missing in my mind—A Comprehensive Productivity Measure. Without judging, the begging question is this: Does a dollar spent on a Federal workforce generate more, less or the same level of productivity as that dollar spent in the private sector? Purely a guess on my part but I suspect the following comparative productivity scale:

Federal workforce - Low to medium
Private for profit workforce (contracted to government or subsidized by government) - Medium
Non-profit workforce (grants by government) - Low to Medium
Non-profit workforce (not dependent on government) - Medium
Private, for profit workforce (not contracted or subsidized by government) - High

We may not be able to put a dent in the debt or deficit but surely we can demand the highest level of productivity for every dollar spent.
 
Billionaires such as Musk who is worth $800 Billion paid no taxes last year.
Tesla generated 5.7 Billlion in revenue last year and paid no taxes.
Amazon made $90 Billion last year and paid no taxes.
But we should go after federal/state workers because their 'low hanging fruit'?
DOGE, the tip of the rubber spear, just a smokescreen for transferring yet more wealth from the working class to the ultra-rich via tax structures that benefit those who create and sign off on them

Have friends who retired from both federal and state jobs, and have other friends who are envious of their pensions, a couple of them just getting by in retirement a tad resentful. Nothing prevented them from going the same route, or attempting to. And for every one of those pensioners that really enjoyed their job a bunch of them showed up to the same office cube decade after decade putting in an 8 to 5.
And for that they deserve whatever they got.
 
Last edited:
Billionaires such as Musk who is worth $800 Billion paid no taxes last year.
Tesla generated 5.7 Billlion in revenue in taxes last year and paid no taxes.
Amazon made $90 Billion last year and paid no taxes.
But we should go after federal/state workers because their 'low hanging fruit'?
DOGE, the tip of the rubber spear, just a smokescreen for transferring yet more wealth from the working class to the ultra-rich via tax structures that benefit those who create and sign off on them

Have friends who retired from both federal and state jobs, and have other friends who are envious of their pensions, a couple of them just getting by in retirement a tad resentful. Nothing prevented them from going the same route, or attempting to. And for every one of those pensioners that really enjoyed their job a bunch of them showed up to the same office cube decade after decade putting in an 8 to 5.
And for that they deserve whatever they got.
Government workers of the world unite!
 
Good article. However the real “stick in the mud” aspect of this is missing in my mind—A Comprehensive Productivity Measure. Without judging, the begging question is this: Does a dollar spent on a Federal workforce generate more, less or the same level of productivity as that dollar spent in the private sector? Purely a guess on my part but I suspect the following comparative productivity scale:

Federal workforce - Low to medium
Private for profit workforce (contracted to government or subsidized by government) - Medium
Non-profit workforce (grants by government) - Low to Medium
Non-profit workforce (not dependent on government) - Medium
Private, for profit workforce (not contracted or subsidized by government) - High

We may not be able to put a dent in the debt or deficit but surely we can demand the highest level of productivity for every dollar spent.
You really have nothing to back up your productivity assertion. It's odd to even guess.

The other thing is, with regards to productivity what is the measure? It's a lot easier to measure these sorts of things in a private sector job where you make or sell widgets. Often the goals in public sector work are not as easily measured. It's sort of like salmon recovery work. How do you measure work that reduces the reduction in salmon in a stream or area over what would have happened without it? measuring success in gov and non-profit jobs to most for profit jobs is just not apples to apples. Governemnt entities do things that don't lend themselves to easily measured free market metrics for success like more widgets sold or created.

In my head, I'm thinking of a federal employee who helped a friend of mine reclaim thousands of acres of rangeland from weeds and non-native grasses to native grasses. This would be preposterously hard to measure against a private sector employees work. In fact, there likely is no private sector equivalent worker. It certainly is not something that would financially balance out, but the work is important and there was a huge benefit to the land, wildlife, the rancher with the lease and adjacent property owners.

As an aside, the biggest most wasteful things that I have seen in my life have been on the private side. Fantom hours billed, materials wasted in the form of expensive chemicals going unused and then paid for to be disposed of. I've seen an entire huge wastewater plant that essentially never worked as designed. Tens of milllions of dollars were spent on failed infastructure. I was paid by the hour to sit and wait for an alarm to go off. I think these things happen on both sides but the private side understands that often waste is required to improve.
 
You really have nothing to back up your productivity assertion. It's odd to even guess.

The other thing is, with regards to productivity what is the measure? It's a lot easier to measure these sorts of things in a private sector job where you make or sell widgets. Often the goals in public sector work are not as easily measured. It's sort of like salmon recovery work. How do you measure work that reduces the reduction in salmon in a stream or area over what would have happened without it? measuring success in gov and non-profit jobs to most for profit jobs is just not apples to apples. Governemnt entities do things that don't lend themselves to easily measured free market metrics for success like more widgets sold or created.

In my head, I'm thinking of a federal employee who helped a friend of mine reclaim thousands of acres of rangeland from weeds and non-native grasses to native grasses. This would be preposterously hard to measure against a private sector employees work. In fact, there likely is no private sector equivalent worker. It certainly is not something that would financially balance out, but the work is important and there was a huge benefit to the land, wildlife, the rancher with the lease and adjacent property owners.

As an aside, the biggest most wasteful things that I have seen in my life have been on the private side. Fantom hours billed, materials wasted in the form of expensive chemicals going unused and then paid for to be disposed of. I've seen an entire huge wastewater plant that essentially never worked as designed. Tens of milllions of dollars were spent on failed infastructure. I was paid by the hour to sit and wait for an alarm to go off. I think these things happen on both sides but the private side understands that often waste is required to improve.
Five overweight guys leaning on shovels while the summer hire digs a hole is a pretty compelling case and one I've seen often. To even assert that government agencies get more value per man hour or dollar is insane. But please explain to me how the sky is green.

What are the odds that private treatment plant was being paid for operation from a government entity with tax dollars? Or they could be just bilking the public directly I guess.
 
Last edited:
You really have nothing to back up your productivity assertion. It's odd to even guess.
28 years in government service in the USAF as a counterintelligence officer, 10 of those years working with other US government agencies overseas. 26 years+ as a strategic planning consultant with clients ranging from Fortune 500 across a wide spectrum of industries down to mom+pop entrepreneurial enterprises, US, state and local government agencies, non-profits. Experience with both private sector enterprises that have zero government connection to those highly dependent on government contracts, grants and subsidies.

Indeed productivity can be difficult to measure at times, but that doesn’t make it irrelevant and the apparent difficulty in measuring is usually attributable to emphasis on tactical (effort) measures instead of strategic (success) measures.
 
28 years in government service in the USAF as a counterintelligence officer, 10 of those years working with other US government agencies overseas. 26 years+ as a strategic planning consultant with clients ranging from Fortune 500 across a wide spectrum of industries down to mom+pop entrepreneurial enterprises, US, state and local government agencies, non-profits. Experience with both private sector enterprises that have zero government connection to those highly dependent on government contracts, grants and subsidies.

Indeed productivity can be difficult to measure at times, but that doesn’t make it irrelevant and the apparent difficulty in measuring is usually attributable to emphasis on tactical (effort) measures instead of strategic (success) measures.
You do a fine job of blowing yourself online.

Congrats...how productive of upu !
 
Billionaires such as Musk who is worth $800 Billion paid no taxes last year.
Tesla generated 5.7 Billlion in revenue last year and paid no taxes.
Amazon made $90 Billion last year and paid no taxes.
But we should go after federal/state workers because their 'low hanging fruit'?
DOGE, the tip of the rubber spear, just a smokescreen for transferring yet more wealth from the working class to the ultra-rich via tax structures that benefit those who create and sign off on them

Have friends who retired from both federal and state jobs, and have other friends who are envious of their pensions, a couple of them just getting by in retirement a tad resentful. Nothing prevented them from going the same route, or attempting to. And for every one of those pensioners that really enjoyed their job a bunch of them showed up to the same office cube decade after decade putting in an 8 to 5.
And for that they deserve whatever they got.
I think your Amazon assertion is a bit off: Amazon paid $19+ Billion in Income Taxes in 2025.

 
You do a fine job of blowing yourself online.

Congrats...how productive of upu !
Just answering Charles Sullivan’s question! We all have histories.
 
...........Does a dollar spent on a Federal workforce generate more, less or the same level of productivity as that dollar spent in the private sector? Purely a guess on my part but I suspect the following comparative productivity scale:

Federal workforce - Low to medium
Private for profit workforce (contracted to government or subsidized by government) - Medium
Non-profit workforce (grants by government) - Low to Medium
Non-profit workforce (not dependent on government) - Medium
Private, for profit workforce (not contracted or subsidized by government) - High

We may not be able to put a dent in the debt or deficit but surely we can demand the highest level of productivity for every dollar spent.
The Federal workforce is incredibly productive.

And thanks to Congress, parts of the Federal workforce are totally unproductive. Particularly when it comes to incorporating new technology into government.

Almost all the significant technological innovations in recent years that have increased productivity have come Federal programs.

It wasn't Al Gore, but the internet did come from Federal programs. The GPS system has totally revolutionized mapping and surveying making so much more productive. Even self-driving cars came from a DARPA program. The concerning part is that so much of American innovation comes from the defense industry. The same goes for the biological sciences.

BUT almost everything done under a Federal contract or by Federal employees is in the public domain.

The Federal government doesn't get any royalties from the internet, GPS, or even the self-driving cars. USGS maps in the US are supplied to business at well below cost. It is one reason why GPS maps are so much better in the US than in Canada, where the government charges high fees for the use of government products.

If you look at ineffective Federal programs and "waste" and "abuse" in those programs can directly be linked back to Congress.

At my first professional job with the Forest Service, I walked by the accounting department and they were going nuts trying to balance the books to the nearest penny. I gallantly, offered the spare change in my pocket to balance the books.

I was told that I didn't understand, but somebody in Congress passed a law that the books for that program needed to be explained to the nearest penny. I suspect a Congressman ran for election and probably won when he said that he made the Forest Service account for every penny for this program. Right, so now the government is spending dollars to find pennies!!!

And my gallant offer to balance the books. Well, I suspect that would be considered fraud and of course an example of a Federal employee not following the law.

I have heard that Congress needs to stop writing laws that tell the Federal employees WHAT to do, and HOW to do it. Instead Congress needs to pass laws that tells Federal employees what they need to accomplish and do oversight to make sure it is accomplished in an efficient manner.

There is no reason for government agencies to be of low productivity. It is OUR government it can be whatever we want it to be.
 
I think your Amazon assertion is a bit off: Amazon paid $19+ Billion in Income Taxes in 2025.

I am not a tax expert, but it looks like there is a big difference between Amazon's income tax expense (the amount recorded on financial statements) and cash taxes paid (the actual amount handed to the Treasury). The 2025 income tax expense was $19.09B, but the actual amount paid was $1.2 billion. Still more than zero, but that seems like a pretty small tax payment on profits of near $90 billion.

 
Some on this forum have pointed to reservoirs that were filled early. Keep in mind that the reservoirs were filled due to unseasonably warm weather that melted the snow pack and rain that fell instead of snow. The theory is that filled reservoirs will somehow offset drought which is a fair question. This theory would attempt to counter the WA drought predictions which I have provided below.


After reading this report it is clear to me that drought is real and imminent. It is also clear that the severity of this new drought prediction could have drastic effects on already low stream flows, fish, wildlife, and agricultural demands. These threats are the last thing we need to further strain an already suffering economy. I will agree that there is no specific language to address the reservoir question so I emailed the question below that was met with a quick and thoughtful response.

Jimmy: How much of an effect on the projected drought will the early, filled, reservoirs have?

Thanks for the question. It really depends on which reservoirs you mean. The current drought is based largely on a lack of snowpack and precipitation deficits from the droughts in previous years. The filled reservoirs in the Yakima area hold 1 million acre feet of water. That sound like a lot. But the water needs of that area are 2.5 million acre feet. The difference is usually made by snow melting gradually throughout spring and summer. With no snow, water users will be severely impacted with junior water right holders receiving only about 44% if their normal allotment.

Reservoirs on the west side are a different story. In Tacoma, Seattle and Everett, we should not see impacts to drinking water due to well-managed and robust storage. However, because the ground is dry and the aquifers are low due to not having recovered from previous droughts. We expect impacts to streamflows and wildlife. Let me know if you have more questions.

I have boldfaced two sentences that reminded me about "aquifers" and how important they are even though filled reservoirs are all that meets the eye!
 
Five overweight guys leaning on shovels while the summer hire digs a hole is a pretty compelling case and one I've seen often. To even assert that government agencies get more value per man hour or dollar is insane. But please explain to me how the sky is green.

What are the odds that private treatment plant was being paid for operation from a government entity with tax dollars? Or they could be just bilking the public directly I guess.
The wastewater treatment plant was owned by Bristol Meyers Squib. I worked at it as a contract operator. No tax dollars were used that I know of. They tried to turn high strength waste from penicilian production into energy via anaerobic digesters. It failed and it smelled really bad when it burbed mercapto-ethanol occasionally. BMS could pay for it though. I mean they are Bristol Meyers after all.

I did not assert that government agencies get more value per man hour. That's a strawman argument. I used my experience to show concrete real examples where I have seen remarkable waste or failed projects on the private side to show that all work public and private has waste and inefficiency.

I don't like the condescending tone of your response, and I am asking you to check your tone. I'm not dumb. My thoughts are not lesser than yours and I do not deserve to be spoken to that way. I can and have go down the sarcastic belittling road too, but I realize that this place would be a shit show if that was the tone I struck when I disagreed with people.
 
In other local news discover passes are up in price and local DNR land are to close due to funding shortfalls. Apparently a lack of timber sale revenue is coming home to roost. I wonder how that happened?
Obvious solution: need to tax land owners for not harvesting timber....
 
The wastewater treatment plant was owned by Bristol Meyers Squib. I worked at it as a contract operator. No tax dollars were used that I know of. They tried to turn high strength waste from penicilian production into energy via anaerobic digesters. It failed and it smelled really bad when it burbed mercapto-ethanol occasionally. BMS could pay for it though. I mean they are Bristol Meyers after all.

I did not assert that government agencies get more value per man hour. That's a strawman argument. I used my experience to show concrete real examples where I have seen remarkable waste or failed projects on the private side to show that all work public and private has waste and inefficiency.

I don't like the condescending tone of your response, and I am asking you to check your tone. I'm not dumb. My thoughts are not lesser than yours and I do not deserve to be spoken to that way. I can and have go down the sarcastic belittling road too, but I realize that this place would be a shit show if that was the tone I struck when I disagreed with people.
Perhaps it doesn't translate well in print but I meant you no offense. You simply stated the biggest waste you've witnessed was in private. I responded with contrary ideas. Again I did not mean to offend you or speak to you in a belittling way. That was not my intent. If that was how it was taken I apologize. And I do appreciate your response in relaying your experience in more detail and do not wish to stifle discussion between us by having ill will felt or belittling speech as a barrier to said discussion. If my involvement in this discussion has that effect on people in more than an isolated fashion or simply not productive. I will without reservation see myself out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top