Pucker up

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dustin Chromers said:
Can't argue with any of that. Could it be common ground? I think so.

Side note. I think 80 percent of Americans are essentially in agreement on the big issues. They may not agree with the road plan to solve them but they want the same result. It's a travesty we have lost the moderates in governance. The were the people who could actually move the needle of getting things done.
Click to expand...
We've lost moderates in governance and in the public discourse. I think those 2 things go hand in hand.

I think that the 20% of disagreements are overly focussed on as well. That 20% is used to feed people thirst for the feeling of moral superiority IMO. The sad part is that people tune in every day to get their fill of it.
 
I'm' retired now but gotta laugh at the "government employees are union which makes cutting the fat neatly impossible" I don't know about the rest of govt., but at King County it was nearly impossible to keep the staff necessary to provide the services demanded by KC residents.

Whether directly serving residents (like Public Health or Transit) or internal support agencies like IT, we were all searching for better ways to provide services with less staff because there just wasn't funding for the positions.

There was a time back in the 70s and 80s (I'm told) where they were fat with staff (same time period when they called Boeing the Lazy B). But ever since I started in the 90s we were at the bleeding edge of staff. You were expected to be doing a full time job and half of someone else's just to keep your position.

The 'lazy govt employee' is an enduring fallacy where people seem to look at how long, and how many public service employees, it takes to accomplish a project and make statements like "Me and Bubba could have had that done in 2 hrs and it took them a week!". These employees take so long typically because of all the processes and red tape they have to follow.

I'll tell you what really bleeds govt resources and it's usually some dimwit manager or director not understanding why some processes take so long and wanting to make things easier/cheaper. They make changes based on their simplistic vision and end up FUBARing a working process and causing endless headaches and wasted time for those around them. I could tell you stories of failed payroll systems that cost the taxpayers millions. :(

The same situation exists in public utilities and private industry. Just look at Seattle City Light- they didn't provide for fish passage on their dams by claiming migratory salmonids did not utilize habitat above the dams (the cheap option). Now Tribes have successfully sued them and they'll have to retrofit fish passage. Millions of dollars and guess who gets to pay??? Seattle City Light customers. :(

Govt will get your money, whether in sales and property tax (WA), income and property tax (OR).

Here's a conundrum for you - a hypothetical state govt charges a high license tab fee on vehicles and the money in part supports highway maintenance. People complain so they reduce the tab costs by half and sell all the good highways to private entities who then charge tolls to use their roads.

It's a for-profit enterprise, so the fees are 5 - $10 and you may go thru several tolls on a long trip. But the alternative is to use the pothole ridden backroads. Are you happy? After all, taxes went down.

IMHO, there's no easy answer. Whether public or private, corrupt/incompetent leaders seem to be a recurring theme we can't escape.
 
doublespey said:
I'm' retired now but gotta laugh at the "government employees are union which makes cutting the fat neatly impossible" I don't know about the rest of govt., but at King County it was nearly impossible to keep the staff necessary to provide the services demanded by KC residents.

Whether directly serving residents (like Public Health or Transit) or internal support agencies like IT, we were all searching for better ways to provide services with less staff because there just wasn't funding for the positions.

There was a time back in the 70s and 80s (I'm told) where they were fat with staff (same time period when they called Boeing the Lazy B). But ever since I started in the 90s we were at the bleeding edge of staff. You were expected to be doing a full time job and half of someone else's just to keep your position.

The 'lazy govt employee' is an enduring fallacy where people seem to look at how long, and how many public service employees, it takes to accomplish a project and make statements like "Me and Bubba could have had that done in 2 hrs and it took them a week!". These employees take so long typically because of all the processes and red tape they have to follow.

I'll tell you what really bleeds govt resources and it's usually some dimwit manager or director not understanding why some processes take so long and wanting to make things easier/cheaper. They make changes based on their simplistic vision and end up FUBARing a working process and causing endless headaches and wasted time for those around them. I could tell you stories of failed payroll systems that cost the taxpayers millions. :(

The same situation exists in public utilities and private industry. Just look at Seattle City Light- they didn't provide for fish passage on their dams by claiming migratory salmonids did not utilize habitat above the dams (the cheap option). Now Tribes have successfully sued them and they'll have to retrofit fish passage. Millions of dollars and guess who gets to pay??? Seattle City Light customers. :(

Govt will get your money, whether in sales and property tax (WA), income and property tax (OR).

Here's a conundrum for you - a hypothetical state govt charges a high license tab fee on vehicles and the money in part supports highway maintenance. People complain so they reduce the tab costs by half and sell all the good highways to private entities who then charge tolls to use their roads.

It's a for-profit enterprise, so the fees are 5 - $10 and you may go thru several tolls on a long trip. But the alternative is to use the pothole ridden backroads. Are you happy? After all, taxes went down.

IMHO, there's no easy answer. Whether public or private, corrupt/incompetent leaders seem to be a recurring theme we can't escape.
Click to expand...
It is just inherent with capitalism, just too much of it to love, with the idealism of democracy.
 
doublespey said:
I'm' retired now but gotta laugh at the "government employees are union which makes cutting the fat neatly impossible" I don't know about the rest of govt., but at King County it was nearly impossible to keep the staff necessary to provide the services demanded by KC residents.

Whether directly serving residents (like Public Health or Transit) or internal support agencies like IT, we were all searching for better ways to provide services with less staff because there just wasn't funding for the positions.

There was a time back in the 70s and 80s (I'm told) where they were fat with staff (same time period when they called Boeing the Lazy B). But ever since I started in the 90s we were at the bleeding edge of staff. You were expected to be doing a full time job and half of someone else's just to keep your position.

The 'lazy govt employee' is an enduring fallacy where people seem to look at how long, and how many public service employees, it takes to accomplish a project and make statements like "Me and Bubba could have had that done in 2 hrs and it took them a week!". These employees take so long typically because of all the processes and red tape they have to follow.

I'll tell you what really bleeds govt resources and it's usually some dimwit manager or director not understanding why some processes take so long and wanting to make things easier/cheaper. They make changes based on their simplistic vision and end up FUBARing a working process and causing endless headaches and wasted time for those around them. I could tell you stories of failed payroll systems that cost the taxpayers millions. :(

The same situation exists in public utilities and private industry. Just look at Seattle City Light- they didn't provide for fish passage on their dams by claiming migratory salmonids did not utilize habitat above the dams (the cheap option). Now Tribes have successfully sued them and they'll have to retrofit fish passage. Millions of dollars and guess who gets to pay??? Seattle City Light customers. :(

Govt will get your money, whether in sales and property tax (WA), income and property tax (OR).

Here's a conundrum for you - a hypothetical state govt charges a high license tab fee on vehicles and the money in part supports highway maintenance. People complain so they reduce the tab costs by half and sell all the good highways to private entities who then charge tolls to use their roads.

It's a for-profit enterprise, so the fees are 5 - $10 and you may go thru several tolls on a long trip. But the alternative is to use the pothole ridden backroads. Are you happy? After all, taxes went down.

IMHO, there's no easy answer. Whether public or private, corrupt/incompetent leaders seem to be a recurring theme we can't escape.
Click to expand...
For some reason when I read this, I had this image in my head (and I don't know why neither)...

1774562395630.png
 
Last edited:
At the core of our budget problems is the tax free ride we give massive corporations who leverage our workers, our roads, our airports, and other critical infrastructure while pipe-lining hundreds of millions to politicians to make sure they maintain their tax free ride.
As of today there are over 250,000 folks in the US with assets over 50 million, and thanks to revenue protecting tax schemes, pay the least amount in taxes as a percentage of income. Or as billionaire Warren Buffet famously said, "my secretary pays more in income taxes than I do."
So while Rob is getting jacked on his truck fees:
  • Tesla: Reported $0 federal income tax on $5.7 billion of U.S. income in 2025 (and previously in 2020).
  • Nike: Paid zero federal income tax on nearly $2.9 billion of income in 2020.
  • FedEx: Zeroed out federal taxes on $1.2 billion of U.S. income in 2020.
  • Charter Communications (Spectrum): Paid no federal income taxes in 2021 despite $6 billion in earnings.
  • Salesforce: Avoided all federal income taxes on $2.6 billion of U.S. income in 2020.
  • T-Mobile US: Paid a 0.4% effective tax rate in 2023.
  • Amazon: Has consistently paid very low rates (roughly 6% in 2021) compared to the statutory rate.
  • Meta (Facebook): Avoided 83% of taxes based on U.S. income in recent analysis.
  • General Electric: Received a $423 million tax refund in 2023 despite $7 billion in profits.
 
Last edited:
charles sullivan said:
I understand all 3 items above. I don't see how doing #3 necessarily even helps with 1 and 2. In fact, I would say that 3 is a poor answer to the issues that 1 and 2 represent.

I think the issue is that I don't really know who the "they" that you speak of is. If "they" are the representatives in Olympia, then I can see your point, however, cutting the pay of Rep's won't make a dent in the budget. If "they" is state employees then I think that would be a poor tactic and probably cost a lot more in the long run. It's not like the average state employee is making big bucks. Balancing the budget on the backs of your employees salaries is generally quite short sighted in my opinion.

I think that you should do all that you can to be an active participant in our state and lobby for the state government that you want. If that is a government that provides fewer things or with different priorities, you should get involved as best as you can.
Click to expand...
Regarding number 3, we have recent evidence at other levels of government showing that you can cut government employment and still blow the budget. So I don’t think that the solution lies there
 
SurfnFish said:
At the core of our budget problems is the tax free ride we give massive corporations who leverage our workers, our roads, our airports, and other critical infrastructure while pipe-lining hundreds of millions to politicians to make sure they maintain their tax free ride.
As of today there are over a quarter billion folks in the US with assets over 50 million, and those are the folks who pay the least amount in taxes as a percentage of income. Or as billionaire Warren Buffet famously said, "my secretary pays more in income taxes than I do."
So while Rob is getting jacked on his truck fees:
  • Tesla: Reported $0 federal income tax on $5.7 billion of U.S. income in 2025 (and previously in 2020).
  • Nike: Paid zero federal income tax on nearly $2.9 billion of income in 2020.
  • FedEx: Zeroed out federal taxes on $1.2 billion of U.S. income in 2020.
  • Charter Communications (Spectrum): Paid no federal income taxes in 2021 despite $6 billion in earnings.
  • Salesforce: Avoided all federal income taxes on $2.6 billion of U.S. income in 2020.
  • T-Mobile US: Paid a 0.4% effective tax rate in 2023.
  • Amazon: Has consistently paid very low rates (roughly 6% in 2021) compared to the statutory rate.
  • Meta (Facebook): Avoided 83% of taxes based on U.S. income in recent analysis.
  • General Electric: Received a $423 million tax refund in 2023 despite $7 billion in profits.
Click to expand...
Yes of course it will be see as punishment and revenge and an economic jump start.
 
^

This...

It's been getting more and more skewed over the last 45 years.
But hey, let's blame the mid level government workers, because that's easier than analyzing tax policy. Which is hard.
 
Mossback said:
^

This...

It's been getting more and more skewed over the last 45 years.
But hey, let's blame the mid level government workers, because that's easier than analyzing tax policy. Which is hard.
Click to expand...
Equality vs bribery to keep corporate entities here vs offshore tax havens and bribery or screw it all and push for a diminished intelligence tax
 
SurfnFish said:
At the core of our budget problems is the tax free ride we give massive corporations who leverage our workers, our roads, our airports, and other critical infrastructure while pipe-lining hundreds of millions to politicians to make sure they maintain their tax free ride.
As of today there are over a quarter billion folks in the US with assets over 50 million, and those are the folks who pay the least amount in taxes as a percentage of income. Or as billionaire Warren Buffet famously said, "my secretary pays more in income taxes than I do."
So while Rob is getting jacked on his truck fees:
  • Tesla: Reported $0 federal income tax on $5.7 billion of U.S. income in 2025 (and previously in 2020).
  • Nike: Paid zero federal income tax on nearly $2.9 billion of income in 2020.
  • FedEx: Zeroed out federal taxes on $1.2 billion of U.S. income in 2020.
  • Charter Communications (Spectrum): Paid no federal income taxes in 2021 despite $6 billion in earnings.
  • Salesforce: Avoided all federal income taxes on $2.6 billion of U.S. income in 2020.
  • T-Mobile US: Paid a 0.4% effective tax rate in 2023.
  • Amazon: Has consistently paid very low rates (roughly 6% in 2021) compared to the statutory rate.
  • Meta (Facebook): Avoided 83% of taxes based on U.S. income in recent analysis.
  • General Electric: Received a $423 million tax refund in 2023 despite $7 billion in profits.
Click to expand...
Corporations (not individuals running the corporation) pay income tax not on income but on net, taxable profits. It's irrelevant the amount of income if expenses (capital and operational), investments, depreciation, tax credits, etc. exceed the amount of income--ie. no profit, no taxes.
 
PhilR said:
Regarding number 3, we have recent evidence at other levels of government showing that you can cut government employment and still blow the budget. So I don’t think that the solution lies there
Click to expand...
That right there tells me…they are top heavy (in not so many words). 😉
 
Mike Cline said:
Corporations (not individuals running the corporation) pay income tax not on income but on net, taxable profits. It's irrelevant the amount of income if expenses (capital and operational), investments, depreciation, tax credits, etc. exceed the amount of income--ie. no profit, no taxes.
Click to expand...
The corporate buy borrow die
IRS strategy
 
@SurfnFish said above: “Amazon: Has consistently paid very low rates (roughly 6% in 2021) compared to the statutory rate.

Here’s the revenue/profit history:

fourweekmba.com

Is Amazon Profitable? Amazon Profitability 1994-2023 - FourWeekMBA

Amazon was profitable in 2021. The company generated over $33 billion in net income, primarily driven by the Amazon AWS business, which contributed to over 55% of its operating margins and other profitable parts like Amazon Prime and Ads. The Amazon e-commerce platform runs at tight operating...
fourweekmba.com fourweekmba.com

legalclarity.org

How Much Does Amazon Actually Pay in Taxes?

Decode Amazon’s complex tax structure. We explain the legal mechanisms, accounting differences, and tax credits that minimize its corporate tax liability.
legalclarity.org legalclarity.org
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top