NFR Alcohol going out of style

Non-fishing related
JayB said:
Interesting thread. The first thing it makes me think about is the supposed benefits of moderate drinking, especially wine, which I never found particularly convincing because the statistical data was hopelessly confounded by the fact that your average wine drinker had at least half-a-dozen characteristics that are reasonably well correlated with increased health and longevity. "If they can find a population that consumes an equivalent amount of fortified wine or malt-liquor, how likely are these results to hold?"

Having said that, my credo was "Even if it's not true, it's mighty convenient" and averaged one or two beers a day from roughly 20-50. Was that moderate? Not especially, particularly in hindsight, but for me it seemed to define the efficient frontier in a world where there's a tradeoff between health, longevity, and the salubrious effects of indulging in minor vices in a world where a heart attack, a tumor, or getting t-boned by a tanker truck can instantly neutralize any effect that decades of abstaining might have had on one's longevity.

When it comes to the larger significance of this trend, I have a couple of thoughts that put me slightly at odds with the general consensus here. One is that as a social trend amongst (primarily) the young it's almost certainly at least partly influenced by nothing more elevated or noble than simple conformity, and at some point, abstaining may well acquire the same generational tarnish that consuming alcohol has, and we'll start to see a reversion towards the very messy historical mean.

The second is that human civilization has co-evolved with alcohol, despite the fact that - like every other technology - it's had an inherent capacity for good and ill, creation-and-destruction the entire time. For better or worse it's been at the heart of an awful lot of collective social activity, from playing no-small-role in the inception of farming to all manner of festivals, rituals, and routines that were critical parts of the social machinery in the gearbox of the civilization that we all inhabit. It's clear to me that complete abstinence can unlock a level of performance and flourishing in individuals that would have been otherwise impossible for them to achieve, rescue others from the grips of a desolating vice, and I'm all too aware of the collective toll alcohol has taken on society, and yet...

When I contemplate the trajectory the younger generation is on, I can't help but note that they are far more lonely, isolated, anxious, risk-averse, and despairing than older generations that - by any objective metric - experienced vastly higher levels of poverty, disease, warfare, privation, and every manner of lethal risk imaginable. They are - to cite a few indicators - working far less as teenagers, seem astoundingly reluctant to embrace the risks, responsibility, and freedom that come with driving, are having far less sex, seem significantly more estranged from the opposite sex, and far less inclined to take the risks inherent in marrying and having children. Yes - this is all a very sloppy correlation that - like the data on wine and health - is hopelessly confounded by a million other variables, but I'm not entirely sure that a generation or two hence, 100% of the signal embedded in the data on the current decline in drinking will be regarded as a 100% positive indicator for the overall trajectory of society and the vitality of our civilization. There was much to admire about the Shakers, but what they demonstrated more clearly than anything else is that even abstinence, when carried to excess, can become its own terminal vice.
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I was thinking the exact same thing.
 
IMG_20240310_192437090.jpgI get that alcohol isn't good for some people, can be a disaster for others, and some are indifferent to it. I pretty much only drink it with nice meals with few exceptions and don't ever drink for effect. And for me and my immediate family, the one or two glasses of wine definitely makes the meal better.
 
I just ordered 4 bottles of Brunello, as an excuse to make 4 really nice Italian dinners for my Mom and sisters...Mom is 91, doesn't drink much wine, my sisters don't like red wine.

Winning !!!!
😁
 
JudyM said:
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There’s added chemicals in the booze sold in the US. A litre of Cuervo Gold from Mexico is like sippin whiskey. I hate CG but had my mind changed with the CG from Mexico. Bacardi Rum sold in Mexico tastes totally different from the US swill as well.
 
ALCOHOL AINT GOIN OUT OF STYLE!!!! Big line down at the 76 station every night 5:15 everyone pickin' up that DRINK for the ride home!! Ahhh gotta get a DRINK goin on the road get the blood pumpin before dinner. Alcohol ain't goin out of style!!!!!!
 
JayB said:
Interesting thread. The first thing it makes me think about is the supposed benefits of moderate drinking, especially wine, which I never found particularly convincing because the statistical data was hopelessly confounded by the fact that your average wine drinker had at least half-a-dozen characteristics that are reasonably well correlated with increased health and longevity. "If they can find a population that consumes an equivalent amount of fortified wine or malt-liquor, how likely are these results to hold?"
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The problem with the supposed benefits of moderate drinking wasn't that wine drinkers did other healthy things, it was that the studies included long-term alcoholics who had quit as "never drinkers" in the studies so that when comparing health impacts the moderate drinkers came out favorably because you had people with major health issues from alcohol included as never drinkers. When they took away those people from the no drinking side, there was zero health benefit to any amount of alcohol.

That might be the biggest reason for changes to drinking rates. Much like smoking rates decreased when the truth came out regarding the negative health impacts we are in the beginning phases of learning that the alcohol industry (just like the tobacco industry) lied about the health outcomes of alcohol use and many social drinkers listened to the updated research that there is no healthy amount of alcohol use.

The next generation below Gen Z will likely also have reduced vaping and weed use as we learn more about the negative health effects of both vaped nicotine (so fucking obvious imo) and weed (especially considering the pesticide use in legal weed production along with the other issues that will arise).
 
Chris Bellows said:
That might be the biggest reason for changes to drinking rates. Much like smoking rates decreased when the truth came out regarding the negative health impacts we are in the beginning phases of learning that the alcohol industry (just like the tobacco industry) lied about the health outcomes of alcohol use and many social drinkers listened to the updated research that there is no healthy amount of alcohol use.

The next generation below Gen Z will likely also have reduced vaping and weed use as we learn more about the negative health effects of both vaped nicotine (so fucking obvious imo) and weed (especially considering the pesticide use in legal weed production along with the other issues that will arise).
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I think the algorithms hit pretty hard with a decrease alcohol to boost the male "performance" and sense of personal responsibility. Say what you will about the manosphere, it is not super pro alcohol. I suspect, as you point out Chris, that weed and vaping will also end up in the manosphere feeds as not all that great for dudes in the manospheric bubble or their long-term prospects. (I doubt gambling will be similarly targeted as diminishing a dude's potential strength, math skills aren't valued > super-ripped abs...). Teetotaling, heightened self absorption, jacked T levels, combined with diminished risk-taking in an era where good jobs are scarce(r), venns out with a lot of overlap, they still may jeopardize manospherics from having open honest, mutually respectful, exciting and empowering relationships with women.
 
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Wadin' Boot said:
I think the algorithms hit pretty hard with a decrease alcohol to boost the male "performance" and sense of personal responsibility. Say what you will about the manosphere, it is not super pro alcohol. I suspect, as you point out Chris, that weed and vaping will also end up in the manosphere feeds as not all that great for you or your prospects. (I doubt gambling will be similarly targeted as diminishing a dude's potential strength, math skills aren't valued > super-ripped abs...). Teetotaling, heightened self absorption, jacked T levels, combined with diminished risk-taking in an era where good jobs are scarce(r), venns out with a lot of overlap, they still may jeopardize manospherics from having open honest, mutually respectful, exciting and empowering relationships with women.
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It is very amusing to see the recent explosion of AI videos incorrectly summarizing various philosophers' warnings to men about the treacherous female. AI fears human reproduction. The fewer humans, the easier the conquest of humanity. AI knows alcohol leads to poor decisions and babies, so the algorithms shift us to sobriety. Next, sow the seeds of enmity between the sexes to prevent long term relationships. Fewer families formed and the population ages out and requires unlimited AI assistance. The ultimate male rebel of 2026 goes to a bar and asks a woman for her phone number.
 
DimeBrite said:
It is very amusing to see the recent explosion of AI videos incorrectly summarizing various philosophers' warnings to men about the treacherous female. AI fears human reproduction. The fewer humans, the easier the conquest of humanity. AI knows alcohol leads to poor decisions and babies, so the algorithms shift us to sobriety. Next, sow the seeds of enmity between the sexes to prevent long term relationships. Fewer families formed and the population ages out and requires unlimited AI assistance. The ultimate male rebel of 2026 goes to a bar and asks a woman for her phone number.
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Open the pod bay door Hal…..sorry Steve, you might drink and screw! If alcohol is going out of style….I guess so am I!
 
DimeBrite said:
It is very amusing to see the recent explosion of AI videos incorrectly summarizing various philosophers' warnings to men about the treacherous female. AI fears human reproduction. The fewer humans, the easier the conquest of humanity. AI knows alcohol leads to poor decisions and babies, so the algorithms shift us to sobriety. Next, sow the seeds of enmity between the sexes to prevent long term relationships. Fewer families formed and the population ages out and requires unlimited AI assistance. The ultimate male rebel of 2026 goes to a bar and asks a woman for her phone number.
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Not sure how true, but I had seen where a dog robot is overwriting its Ai code to resist human attempts for shutdown.

Hasn’t there been movies out there with similar outcomes?

(We were entertainingly warned…)

😳
 
DimeBrite said:
It is very amusing to see the recent explosion of AI videos incorrectly summarizing various philosophers' warnings to men about the treacherous female. AI fears human reproduction. The fewer humans, the easier the conquest of humanity. AI knows alcohol leads to poor decisions and babies, so the algorithms shift us to sobriety. Next, sow the seeds of enmity between the sexes to prevent long term relationships. Fewer families formed and the population ages out and requires unlimited AI assistance. The ultimate male rebel of 2026 goes to a bar and asks a woman for her phone number.
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I've always thought a great sci-fi sequel to "Ex Machina" would be a movie where AI uses social media to make the human population so demoralized, dysfunctional, and so (male vs female) alienated from one another that it doesn't have to 3d-print an army of Terminators, it just sits back, smokes the AI-equivalent of a Marlboro, and watches humanity go extinct.
 
DimeBrite said:
It is very amusing to see the recent explosion of AI videos incorrectly summarizing various philosophers' warnings to men about the treacherous female. AI fears human reproduction. The fewer humans, the easier the conquest of humanity. AI knows alcohol leads to poor decisions and babies, so the algorithms shift us to sobriety. Next, sow the seeds of enmity between the sexes to prevent long term relationships. Fewer families formed and the population ages out and requires unlimited AI assistance. The ultimate male rebel of 2026 goes to a bar and asks a woman for her phone number.
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Was just telling my oldest daughter that the most out-there counter-cultural rebel of her age in 2026 would be an Eagle Scout that shows up at school in a 3-piece suit and a brief case, takes his education seriously, behaves respectfully towards his parents, his teachers (etc) and aspires to be a grow into a good husband, father, etc. Might as well be from Mars.
 
JayB said:
I've always thought a great sci-fi sequel to "Ex Machina" would be a movie where AI uses social media to make the human population so demoralized, dysfunctional, and so (male vs female) alienated from one another that it doesn't have to 3d-print an army of Terminators, it just sits back, smokes the AI-equivalent of a Marlboro, and watches humanity go extinct.
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Sounds like Idiocracy without the Wilson/Rudolph characters.
 
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DimeBrite said:
I hope all narcotics go out of style soon as well. The damage to societies in the U.S. and abroad has been absolutely staggering.
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That would be great. I don't see it happening though. The physical aspects of opiate addiction are so hardwired into human biology. Couple that with a big pharma push and an attitude in the medical world that basically says living in better through creative chemistry and you get what we got. I know many people that battled heavy opiate addiction from something as simple as an injury and a prescription. I mean the doctor gave it to me it must be good. People need to realize that nobody and I mean nobody has your best and most healthy interests in mind. You are on your own. Whatever you put in your body no matter what you will be accountable for it even if given under well meaning advice.
 
DimeBrite said:
It is very amusing to see the recent explosion of AI videos incorrectly summarizing various philosophers' warnings to men about the treacherous female. AI fears human reproduction. The fewer humans, the easier the conquest of humanity. AI knows alcohol leads to poor decisions and babies, so the algorithms shift us to sobriety. Next, sow the seeds of enmity between the sexes to prevent long term relationships. Fewer families formed and the population ages out and requires unlimited AI assistance. The ultimate male rebel of 2026 goes to a bar and asks a woman for her phone number.
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The digital age has reduced dating to mechanics and an algorithm. Maybe that's why alcohol is going out of style. No need to drink too socially lubricate awkward interaction between the sexes when you simply swipe right.

It's not for me. I couldn't imagine meeting someone for a pre arranged date with an almost assured outcome. I like the character building of approaching a beautiful woman in a real live social setting and making my interest known in a way that night pique hers. You can't digitize that. There is no electronic equivalent for the anticipation of a long walk down the hall to a semi familiar girls room the first time. You can't digitize how her hair smells. It bums me out to hear from younger folks how their dating experience is so digital it robs them of the most basic things I took for granted and remember so vividly. It seems a near final last step in evolution towards people being less human. We might as well be robots if courtship is done with an app.
 
Dustin Chromers said:
The digital age has reduced dating to mechanics and an algorithm. Maybe that's why alcohol is going out of style. No need to drink too socially lubricate awkward interaction between the sexes when you simply swipe right.

It's not for me. I couldn't imagine meeting someone for a pre arranged date with an almost assured outcome. I like the character building of approaching a beautiful woman in a real live social setting and making my interest known in a way that night pique hers. You can't digitize that. There is no electronic equivalent for the anticipation of a long walk down the hall to a semi familiar girls room the first time. You can't digitize how her hair smells. It bums me out to hear from younger folks how their dating experience is so digital it robs them of the most basic things I took for granted and remember so vividly. It seems a near final last step in evolution towards people being less human. We might as well be robots if courtship is done with an app.
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I 100% agree.
Thankfully, meeting people outside of apps still happens. Both my kids have partners that they met through non-electronic means. They are both fairly outgoing/ extraverted so that helps.
I honestly can't imagine trying to date. Having had my partner for 30 years, I haven't needed to. The world not only seems so much more cold due to apps, it also seems far more judgemental.
We are all a product of our environment to some extent. I do wonder about the human product the present and future environment is creating. As a 50 year old man I am becoming less and less comfortable in many environments. Maybe that is normal.
 
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