eCommerce rod company question

[someguy23]

It seems to me that in the past 5-7 years or so, primarily eCommerce-based rod companies are popping up everywhere. All of them sell overseas built rods (or use overseas blanks at least), most cleave to the budget/mid-priced model rather than the premium model. Even some fly shops are in the business of selling inexpensive shop-branded rods. In both cases, it's often not 100% clear how much design actually goes into the rods.

I wondered if there's a resource anywhere that can help to navigate these companies. Although they aren't fully eCommerce-based, we know that companies like Echo and Beulah actually put time and effort into rod design as well as material and component selection. eCommerce-centered companies like Taylor and (from what I understand) San Juan Rodworks seem to do the same. But then there are companies like Moonshine (1.0 anyway) that are accused of simply rebranding MaxCatch etc. rods, and it's hard for me to think that some of the sub-$200 fly shop branded rods are any different.

So I'm wondering if—beyond scrubbing the forums—there's any resource out that might shed some light here. I find that personal anecdotes of quality aren't particularly useful. For example, clearly many customers really like their first generation Moonshine rods. I also think that the "only buy rods you can touch first" advice is, while of some merit, not always practicable for rod buyers. Just as an example, Taylor probably wouldn't be in business if everyone followed this edict and that would be, from many accounts, a shame.

Anyway, anyone know of anything? Obviously, comprehensivity isn't possible but anything is helpful!

 

[Evan B]

Well I don't know of any resources but it's a topic I could certainly shed a lot of light on. I'll need to reflect on what I should or shouldn't say on a public forum regarding such things. I'm not in the industry anymore but my experience with a well known fly fishing brand and another one who fits the category you're inquiring about give me quite a bit more insight than most.

Lots I can say, lots I shouldn't. But the main hangup I have on laying out my thoughts are I can't back much up with hard evidence, and I don't want any legal issues to pop up for me or the forum.

I guess in short, I would stick with the reputable brands. Not much to be gained by saving a few bucks with a fly by night e-commerce company slapping their name on a blank that was a copy of a blank made by a company who put time, money and effort into R&D.

 

[someguy23]

Well I don't know of any resources but it's a topic I could certainly shed a lot of light on. I'll need to reflect on what I should or shouldn't say on a public forum regarding such things. I'm not in the industry anymore but my experience with a well known fly fishing brand and another one who fits the category you're inquiring about give me quite a bit more insight than most.

Lots I can say, lots I shouldn't. But the main hangup I have on laying out my thoughts are I can't back much up with hard evidence, and I don't want any legal issues to pop up for me or the forum.

I guess in short, I would stick with the reputable brands. Not much to be gained by saving a few bucks with a fly by night e-commerce company slapping their name on a blank that was a copy of a blank made by a company who put time, money and effort into R&D.

Thanks! I guess the question is "Who is reputable?"

The positive reputation Taylor has is internet-based, and so is the negative one Moonshine has. I suspect that without looking on forums, one could think Moonshine is reputable. So then is Moonlit/Nirvana on the Fly or Red Truck or House of Fly or Risen or Maine or San Juan or etc. etc. reputable? Bozeman seems to not be but Montana Casting Co. maybe is? Tl;dr It's a mess out there!

I don't want to get anyone in trouble, and I'm not an industry person so I don't know the ins and outs of that world. It seems like it would be useful knowledge but understand it's not that simple.

 

[Paige]

Buy from a local fly shop, they need all the help they can get!

 

[Evan B]

Buy from a local fly shop, they need all the help they can get!

This pretty much sums it up. The companies that are direct to consumer only tend to be the types of companies being asked about here.

Lots of great fly shops still around. Let's try to keep it that way.

 

[someguy23]

This pretty much sums it up. The companies that are direct to consumer only tend to be the types of companies being asked about here.

Lots of great fly shops still around. Let's try to keep it that way.

I mean I agree with the sentiment, but for a number of reasons it's not always practical. Lots of folks don't have easy access to fly shops. In addition, and as I mentioned, some fly shops are in the game too. I could name two off the top of my head.

In the ideal situation, we buy a rod from a local shop or a major manufacturer. But there's no Taylor or Stickman or Hayak or Vision (in the States) or (for reels) Danielsson if we do this, right?

I'll just say this: In my rural hometown not far from good freestone fishing, there wasn't a dedicated fly shop for close to 15 years. Now there's one, along with a (really good!) general outdoor store with essentially Redington or Fenwick as options. The one fly shop carries exactly two rod brands: Scott and Echo. Let's say I can't afford a Scott and don't care for the lower priced Echos like the Carbon XL.

So ok, I can buy from Red's or Trident or Dette or Grizzly Hackle etc. online. But I feel like it's reasonable to ask if a direct to consumer company can provide better value for a low priced rod than Orvis or BPS/Cabela's does. Maybe not. Still, it seems a shame if there are passionate rod designers out there operating direct to consumer that we just have to ignore because there is also garbage out there doesn't it?

 

[Evan B]

I mean I agree with the sentiment, but for a number of reasons it's not always practical. Lots of folks don't have easy access to fly shops. In addition, and as I mentioned, some fly shops are in the game too. I could name two off the top of my head.

In the ideal situation, we buy a rod from a local shop or a major manufacturer. But there's no Taylor or Stickman or Hayak or Vision (in the States) or (for reels) Danielsson if we do this, right?

I'll just say this: In my rural hometown not far from good freestone fishing, there wasn't a dedicated fly shop for close to 15 years. Now there's one, along with a (really good!) general outdoor store with essentially Redington or Fenwick as options. The one fly shop carries exactly two rod brands: Scott and Echo. Let's say I can't afford a Scott and don't care for the lower priced Echos like the Carbon XL.

So ok, I can buy from Red's or Trident or Dette or Grizzly Hackle etc. online. But I feel like it's reasonable to ask if a direct to consumer company can provide better value for a low priced rod than Orvis or BPS/Cabela's does. Maybe not. Still, it seems a shame if there are passionate rod designers out there operating direct to consumer that we just have to ignore because there is also garbage out there doesn't it?

Outside of the niche stuff like fiberglass and bamboo, all what I would consider to be a reputable rod company sell through fly shops still. The ones that are doing real r&d. If you don't have a local shop, I know a whole lots of shops who would be delighted to help over the phone.

I'm not even necessarily saying the direct to consumer companies are selling bad stuff. Just knowing what's behind the curtain, I believe pretty strongly in supporting the brands putting in the real work.

Also, ECHO has quite a bit in the lineup that fills that wide gap between Carbon XL and Scott rods.

 

[SSPey]

Still, it seems a shame if there are passionate rod designers out there operating direct to consumer that we just have to ignore because there is also garbage out there doesn't it?

Call the company. If you can’t speak to said passionate designer and ask the specific questions that interest you, then move on. A small company without a standing reputation must be willing to make that special effort if they want distinguish themselves from a rebranding company.

 

[Salmo_g]

I figure that an E-commerce rod company that doesn't put some effort into making the brand "known" is only interested in selling to undiscriminating buyers. If they think their product is good, then they need to attend fly shows, claves, and whatever so that people can have an opportunity to see and try out the rods. Otherwise Echo, Redington, and others have the low to mid price point area of the market pretty well covered and backed up with reputation. This is not to say that E-commerce rods are bad. For instance, H&H sells rods and blanks, but they are made by Rainshadow and Batson and have industry standing. And if you buy a rod that just "isn't you," then you can return it and buy something else.