NFR Ukraine...Little Did I Know

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There won't be a "no fly zone" over Ukraine unless NATO goes to war with both Belarus and Russia. Let's avoid that.

However, NATO can and should rapidly supply Ukraine military with high altitude air defense systems to protect themselves. Stingers and manpads are good for low altitude air defense from short distance.
 
Putin's military adventure reminds me of Moussolini's bungled invasions in Africa. Hopefully China won't become an enabler.

WASHINGTON — Russia asked China to give it military equipment and support for the war in Ukraine after President Vladimir V. Putin began a full-scale invasion last month, according to U.S. officials.
Russia has also asked China for additional economic assistance, to help counteract the battering its economy has taken from broad sanctions imposed by the United States and European and Asian nations, according to an official.
American officials, determined to keep secret their means of collecting the intelligence on Russia’s requests, declined to describe further the kind of military equipment Moscow is seeking. The officials also declined to discuss any reaction by China to the requests.
 
NATO, as an entity, is unlikely to enforce any no fly zone. Individual countries within NATO currently are supplying weapons, so called lethal aid. It's my understanding NATO as an entity is not, and unless something radically changes I don't see NATO as an entity enforcing any future no fly zone.

From earlier:
"NATO is helping to coordinate Ukraine's requests for assistance and is supporting Allies in the delivery of humanitarian and non-lethal aid. Individual NATO member countries are sending weapons, ammunition, medical supplies and other vital military equipment to Ukraine."

Undoubtedly part of Putins strategy here is to widen the scope of conflict to further destabilize markets and seek to divide the NATO alliance.
Coalition building is hard, each country has to weigh the effects of participating in the war on its respective citizens and at home politics. Sanctions have differing consequences on different countries. The US isn't in imminent danger of having missiles hit the ground here, Poland is.
A good job has been done (in my view) of building a cohesive and solid coalition here so far, something that Putin appeared unprepared for.
 
Interesting view here:

All of that means that the anti-armor missiles and other key defensive weapons being shipped in large quantities across the border from Poland can be received and distributed with little to no Russian harassment. Russia isn't a position to militarily intervene, and that's likely to be putting Putin into a rage. Russian military losses are not easily replaceable; if Russia had the spare manpower or machines to throw into the now-stagnating effort, it would be doing so.

Ukrainians, however, can expend all the anti-tank missiles they like in their harassments of Russian convoys. Replacements are being driven across the border and distributed to territorial defenders every day.

Moscow's frustration is now being more evident with new missile strikes. On Sunday, Pentagon spokesperson Jon Kirby told ABC that missile strikes on a military training ground in Lviv were the third such strike into western Ukraine "in just the last couple of days." Such training grounds would be logical places for mass distribution of new weapons, and stopping those deliveries is sure to be one of Russia's top military objectives in the coming days and weeks. They are, however, in no real position to do so.

Missile strikes on training centers may do damage, but distribution points can be moved elsewhere. Satellite images can be used to hunt down new sites, but Russian specialists may well make errors. And most of these defensive weapons are small enough, along with ammunition resupplies, that they can be moved through roads in the largely un-harassed center of Ukraine inside trunks or inside any commercial vehicle available for the task; harassing Ukraine's oft-invisible supply lines are not, at this point, within the capabilities of Russia's air power.

Russian military jets have seen little success against Ukrainian air defenses, and crossing to the country's western edge would only escalate the dangers. Missile strikes may be the only practical means to attack resupply points in Lviv, but even those weapons may not be as numerous as Russia has claimed them to be. Or have the accuracy Russian generals have long claimed.

That lack of accuracy may now add to the risks of a wider war. The target of Russia's missile strikes was a training site just 10km from the Polish border. If Russia escalates air strikes in and around Lviv, it would take only one errant weapon to cross the border into Poland itself. Such an attack could well trigger NATO treaty conditions—and would almost certainly do so if the "errant" strike was repeated. Stalling the weapons shipments now regularly crossing the Polish border may be of vital consequence to the Russian officers now desperate to keep their heads attached and their blood unpoisoned, but it represents yet another high-risk move for a Russian military that has seen most such gambles collapse in failure.
 
The end game is Russia will eventually destroy the large cities of Ukraine by heavy artillery and missile bombardment, brick by brick. Having no food, electricity or potable water, the Ukrainians will be overwhelmed, and will have no choice but to sue for peace. We either need to step up and provide air support and severely degrade the Russian capability to shell by artillery or multiple missile launchers on Ukrainian soil, and prevent cruise missile launches by bombers in Ukrainian airspace that are now trying to reach western Ukraine routes we are using to arm them…or stop giving lethal aid altogether to prevent further loss of civilian life. We cannot continue to only provide small arms munitions and shoulder fired anti armor and low altitude anti aircraft weapons…it is simply not enough to prevent the inevitable.

At first, I was totally against US and NATO involvement…now, due to the deliberate targeting of the civilian population, I say fuck Russia…and if they begin lob ballistic missiles at Poland or any other country, we destroy their all of their limited warships on the southern coast, cut off all of the Russian military on the Crimean peninsula from resupply, and if necessary, destroy SAM and ballistic missile sites in western Russia and Belarus…
 
Putin sees NATO intervention in Ukraine through the prism of the Crimean War of 1853-1856. He sees Ukraine in the same way as the Franks viewed Jerusalem in the first crusade. I think it explains his eccentric behavior lately.

 
"Putin will be very lucky to see Russia stay intact until he dies. China is already using Chinese names for cities and places in maps of Eastern Russia. It’s inevitable.
China’s beliefs about those cities is the same as Putin’s on Ukraine. They are occupied China."
Doubt if the people living there share that view, but since when did that sort of thing matter ?
 
Putin hasn't flinched in his demands for demilitarization of Ukraine and ceding territory. Given all the analyses I have no reason to think he will change his mind. Putin has always been indifferent to the conditions of Russian citizenry, and he is concerned only with himself. If these things are true, Putin will take Ukraine eventually, and when he gets near that objective, if not before, he will begin attacking the Baltic nations. The whole world's watching, but the whole world needs to act. Like it or not, and who likes it?, but I think we're witnessing the beginning of WWIII. I can't see how declaring a no-fly zone in Ukraine at some future date is better for Europe and N. America than doing so now. It's inevitable unless NATO decides to accede to Putin's ambition to restore the USSR.
Absolutely right.. this isn't the opinion we want to have.. it's just the opinion that history and Putin's charecter demand that we have.. Unless we decide free Europe doesn't matter. Which is a logical argument. Not smart but logical.
 
I say fuck Russia…
Sure
The civilized world says that.
The question is, as I asked earlier in this thread, is what are you personally willing to sacrifice to help make that happen ?

Nobody has named one thing they'd sacrifice...

Rationed gas ok ?
Rationed food ok?
Lines for both of those ok?
Gold Star families ok ?
American soldiers in caskets ok ?
Market crashes of say 30-40% with 401k's in the toilet ?
Supply chain issues far beyond what we have today ?

Et tu Brute ?

:)
 
Sure
The civilized world says that.
The question is, as I asked earlier in this thread, is what are you personally willing to sacrifice to help make that happen ?

Nobody has named one thing they'd sacrifice...

Rationed gas ok ?
Rationed food ok?
Lines for both of those ok?
Gold Star families ok ?
American soldiers in caskets ok ?
Market crashes of say 30-40% with 401k's in the toilet ?
Supply chain issues far beyond what we have today ?

Et tu Brute ?

:)
 
None of those things would be requires of us..

On a conventional basis, based on what we have seen of the Russian military in Ukraine America could eliminate the Russian military in it's entirety with single to double digit casualties. Yes. Literally.
 
None of those things would be requires of us..

On a conventional basis, based on what we have seen of the Russian military in Ukraine America could eliminate the Russian military in it's entirety with single to double digit casualties. Yes. Literally.
This is so silly. Single digit losses…right.
 
This is so silly. Single digit losses…right.


Day 1 enemy air defenses eliminated 0 losses
F-35's and F-16 CJ 'S

Day 2 and 3. Complete elimination of Russian airforce in or around Ukraine 0 losses
F-15 and maybe F-22

Day 4-6. The complete elimination of all Russian ground vehicles. 0 losses
A-10S

by the time Any American boots are on the ground Russian forces are pretty much untrained demoralized soldiers with Ak-47s and no place to hide.

Not even kinda kidding about minimal casualties.

2 months ago. I wouldn't have been this optimistic. But it's clear that Russia has a paper army not a real one.
 
Be careful what you wish for…just like the Ukrainians, they would be motivated to protect Mother Russia…while I believe we would be successful against Russian military forces, it would be at a cost…it always is…
 
Day 1 enemy air defenses eliminated 0 losses
F-35's and F-16 CJ 'S

Day 2 and 3. Complete elimination of Russian airforce in or around Ukraine 0 losses
F-15 and maybe F-22

Day 4-6. The complete elimination of all Russian ground vehicles. 0 losses
A-10S

by the time Any American boots are on the ground Russian forces are pretty much untrained demoralized soldiers with Ak-47s and no place to hide.

Not even kinda kidding about minimal casualties.

2 months ago. I wouldn't have been this optimistic. But it's clear that Russia has a paper army not a real one.
As long as we are making stuff up with no relevant training or education, I'll try, too.

Day 1.5:
  • Russia and China join forces against "Western Imperialist Aggression."
  • Long hidden hacks and exploits in our critical systems are activated, disrupting dams, pipelines, electrical grids, traffic lights, and train/subway switching.
 
As long as we are making stuff up with no relevant training or education, I'll try, too.

Day 1.5:
  • Russia and China join forces against "Western Imperialist Aggression."
  • Long hidden hacks and exploits in our critical systems are activated, disrupting dams, pipelines, electrical grids, traffic lights, and train/subway switching.
The Day After: well, you saw the movie.
 
Last edited:
Day-5
NATO and China sign a non-aggression pact. Agree to carve up Russian Federation and Stan countries between them.

Day-6
Putin is exiled to St Helena
 
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