Starter Two-Handed set up?

[Mud&$alt72]

I'm seriously considering trying a Two-handed rod this Winter. I mostly fish from the beach for sea-runs and salmon, but I'd like to be able to fish rivers for Steelhead as well. I've been considering the Echo Boost Beach, or the Echo Swing in a 7 or 8wt, Orvis Clearwater, LLBean, (something in the $200 to $300 range). I'm proficient at single hand, and can get good distance, but being able roll cast, and into the wind would be nice. I have a full frame Orvis Battenkill reel that I plan to use for the running line and a shooting head.

I sort of know the differences between switch and spey, and overhead rods, but I'm wondering if rod length really is a big factor in learning to cast these things. I have no opinion on rigging, (Skagit, Scandi, doesn't matter to me at this point). Any basic advise is greatly appreciated.

 

[clarkman]

Not to go too far into the woods which is where my drive would be if I golfed much.....

Drive for show, putt for dough...putting is far easier on the body than driving just for distance.

Now, apply that to casting a fly rod (TH or SH)....same thing. Balance is good though.

 

[Sneax]

I started with an Echo Compact Spey 12' and I'm very happy with it. After taking a lesson, I found that I liked that it had a bit faster action and while I'm sure a 13' can throw farther, the reason mine isn't throwing farther is me, not the rod, and if that changes, I'll probably be ready for another rod anyway.

Also: Echo's warranty rocks. My friend bought one at the same time and snapped a tip early on and they swapped it out real fast for him. Cheaper rods get expensive fast when you have to buy them twice.

 

[Mud&$alt72]

I ask because there's a IV spey and a IV. If it's full frame I want to say it's the IV spey. Be worth looking into because the IV would probably be better suited to balance out a trout spey, whereas the IV spey is more in line with what you're looking into.

Mine is a full frame, older model, but like new, and a different color(dark grey) than what's on the Orvis website

 

[Mud&$alt72]

Well I hope you get to experience it before it's gone.

Right. I hear you

 

[Herkileez]

I'm seriously considering trying a Two-handed rod this Winter. I mostly fish from the beach for sea-runs and salmon, but I'd like to be able to fish rivers for Steelhead as well. I've been considering the Echo Boost Beach, or the Echo Swing in a 7 or 8wt, Orvis Clearwater, LLBean, (something in the $200 to $300 range). I'm proficient at single hand, and can get good distance, but being able roll cast, and into the wind would be nice. I have a full frame Orvis Battenkill reel that I plan to use for the running line and a shooting head.

I sort of know the differences between switch and spey, and overhead rods, but I'm wondering if rod length really is a big factor in learning to cast these things. I have no opinion on rigging, (Skagit, Scandi, doesn't matter to me at this point). Any basic advise is greatly appreciated.

I would save the two-hander for the river. I don't like a two-hander on the beach, because, with it, you strip in only to the start of the head, leaving the head length and tip/leader outside the top guide....That's a lot of length left unfished, as coho will often follow a fly in almost to the rod tip. A singlehand rod allows you to strip almost the whole head in, then, with a few false casts not touching the water, fire the whole line back out. That is difficult with a two-hander.

 

[SurfnFish]

Thanks for this. I've been considering throwing a spey line on my 8wt, and I probably will. What I didn't mention in my original post, is I injured my casting shoulder over a year ago, and even with PT and yoga, casting for more than a few hours, gets old quick.

nursed a partially torn rotator on my dominant arm for years by going to DH rods, keeping top hand even with shoulder, slow things down and let the rod do the work, and would suggest a balanced outfit in a suitable weight for the average fish encountered. Well designed long rods have surprising reserve power, my biggest upriver coastal King was a late run fish taken on a 13' 7 wt while swinging a Purple/Orange Intruder on a short T10 head for winter steel, and whereas that rod got seriously bent, the fish eventually came to hand.

 

[fatbillybob]

I would save the two-hander for the river. I don't like a two-hander on the beach, because, with it, you strip in only to the start of the head, leaving the head length and tip/leader outside the top guide....That's a lot of length left unfished, as coho will often follow a fly in almost to the rod tip. A singlehand rod allows you to strip almost the whole head in, then, with a few false casts not touching the water, fire the whole line back out. That is difficult with a two-hander.

You are correct about the bump of line from head to running line but there are ways to mitigate that. First RIO OBS comes as a head where you attach a running line of your choice or it comes as an integrated line. Second mitigation is keeping rod tip on line with line as it exits the water for a smoother transition if using a head system. Third is to use small knots to connect and smooth them with UV resin.

RIO Premier Outbound Short // Integrated Shooting Head Line

RIO Premier Outbound Short EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL, EASY CASTING line built for maximum distance, with ultra-slick performance. Front loaded to cast large flies with ease Designed for easy distance Built with RIO's exceptionally slick, durable SlickCast coating Multi Density Control on select...

redsflyfishing.com

 

[Herkileez]

You are correct about the bump of line from head to running line but there are ways to mitigate that. First RIO OBS comes as a head where you attach a running line of your choice or it comes as an integrated line. Second mitigation is keeping rod tip on line with line as it exits the water for a smoother transition if using a head system. Third is to use small knots to connect and smooth them with UV resin.

RIO Premier Outbound Short // Integrated Shooting Head Line

RIO Premier Outbound Short EXCEPTIONALLY POWERFUL, EASY CASTING line built for maximum distance, with ultra-slick performance. Front loaded to cast large flies with ease Designed for easy distance Built with RIO's exceptionally slick, durable SlickCast coating Multi Density Control on select...

redsflyfishing.com

I was referring more to, with a sh rod, being able to strip 1/2. or more, of a 30' head inside the top guide, then with a couple of aerial false casts, fire the whole works out again w/o disturbing the water. This is much more difficult with a two-hand rod. The most successful beach fishers in my area use sh rods...in fact, we try to avoid fishing alongside two-handers, because of the surface disturbance they usually cause.

 

[Pink Nighty]

Mud&$alt,

Lots of opinions and lots of experience in the recommendations you're getting. Since you're just getting into 2-handed casting and fishing, think of it the way we advise a person getting their first single hand fly rod to do some trout fishing. Nobody ever went wrong buying a 9' 5 wt rod to go trout fishing. It's the most popular because it is the most versatile. It won't do everything, but it will do most things that the trout fisherman needs to do. Evan recommended an Echo 13' 7 wt with good reason, and I second that recommendation. It is a good rod to learn 2-hand casting (short rods are more difficult to learn Spey type casting because of their inherent timing). And it will do most Spey related fishing. Use it for a couple years, and when you realize you haven't caught any fish where you felt undergunned, then go ahead and buy an 8 wt because you dream that you will catch a fish so big that your 7 wt can't handle it. There is a reason why 13' 7 and 8 wt 2-hand rods have become the all around work horses of the PNW.

Let's understand that no more than 1% of steelhead are 20 pounds or larger (unless you're fishing a VERY few select rivers), and about 98% of all coho are 12 pounds and smaller. Yhandi has an opinion that is well suited when you only catch fish that make up less than 1% of the total steelhead and coho populations. He is right that one cannot comfortably cast 12.5' of T-17 with a 7 wt 2-hand rod. He also invokes the name of the ". . . great Ed Ward . . ." I personally know Ed and recall him writing that, "if you need more than 9' of T-14 for steelhead fishing, you're fishing the wrong water." Sure, there are exceptions, but you can take that statement to the bank. Don't over think this. Get the Spey equivalent of that 9' 5 wt trout rod, a 13' 7 wt. There are many good options, but the Echo is a good choice for budget, build quality, and performance.

I have a 10ft shot of t17 for Springer fishing in a high gradient fork of a now closed river. It's awful to cast on a 9wt.

Get the 7!

 

[fatbillybob]

I was referring more to, with a sh rod, being able to strip 1/2. or more, of a 30' head inside the top guide, then with a couple of aerial false casts, fire the whole works out again w/o disturbing the water. This is much more difficult with a two-hand rod. The most successful beach fishers in my area use sh rods...in fact, we try to avoid fishing alongside two-handers, because of the surface disturbance they usually cause.

I know what you mean! My 2hand surf rod is 11ft. so switch length. It's one backcast and 1 forward so minimal disturbance. Even in rivers 95% of my casts are T&G just a singlespey and a snakeroll. Ripping water just bugs me and I'm not sure why. When I started I used anchored casts and caught just as many fish as I do now with my current stealth mode. I think 2 hand casting makes us go nuts.

 

[doublespey]

I know what you mean! My 2hand surf rod is 11ft. so switch length. It's one backcast and 1 forward so minimal disturbance. Even in rivers 95% of my casts are T&G just a singlespey and a snakeroll. Ripping water just bugs me and I'm not sure why. When I started I used anchored casts and caught just as many fish as I do now with my current stealth mode. I think 2 hand casting makes us go nuts.

I use a 6wt 11' switch with a 420gr SA Scandi Short integrated head to avoid the 'bump' and have no trouble retrieving the fly into shallow water. I just sweep it to the side as I retrieve till the fly is close to shore, one-hand roll cast the rest of the head and then snake roll it back out. I can easily cast off either shoulder depending on the wind. Minimal water disturbance and the fly is fishing again with no false casts. It took awhile to develop this routine but it works with either floating or sinking polyleaders. Almost got a chance to fish in your backyard in early Sept Herkileez, but we slept in and then quickly regretted doing so as the kid at the local fly shop showed us the multiple teener salmon he'd caught off the beach that morning.

 

[Herkileez]

I use a 6wt 11' switch with a 420gr SA Scandi Short integrated head to avoid the 'bump' and have no trouble retrieving the fly into shallow water. I just sweep it to the side as I retrieve till the fly is close to shore, one-hand roll cast the rest of the head and then snake roll it back out. I can easily cast off either shoulder depending on the wind. Minimal water disturbance and the fly is fishing again with no false casts. It took awhile to develop this routine but it works with either floating or sinking polyleaders. Almost got a chance to fish in your backyard in early Sept Herkileez, but we slept in and then quickly regretted doing so as the kid at the local fly shop showed us the multiple teener salmon he'd caught off the beach that morning.

Ah yes..I know him well...and he knows what he's talking about.

 

[Mud&$alt72]

It's been suggested a number of times, trying a Skagit rig on my SH before buying another rod, so that's what I'm going to try. Looking at OPST, it was recommended (for my 9ft 8wt), to try a 35lb Lazer line, with a 275gr Commando head and a Micro Skagit T8 tip. These tips come in full sink, 4' sink/4'float, 6' sink/2'float. what do these tips do? I'm guessing for the beach, the full sink would be fine, but I'm not sure.

 

[Long_Rod_Silvers]

My opinion: single handed skagit casting is harder than two handed. Timing needs to be more precise with a single hander. Which, if you're just starting could make for more struggles. Just my $.02

If you're set on doing it, you've got the reel, I'd grab a 13' 7wt entry spey rod and a line and get after it. Then once you've got it figured out on the two hander, mix it up w/ the one hander.

 

[fatbillybob]

It's been suggested a number of times, trying a Skagit rig on my SH before buying another rod, so that's what I'm going to try. Looking at OPST, it was recommended (for my 9ft 8wt), to try a 35lb Lazer line, with a 275gr Commando head and a Micro Skagit T8 tip. These tips come in full sink, 4' sink/4'float, 6' sink/2'float. what do these tips do? I'm guessing for the beach, the full sink would be fine, but I'm not sure.

Spey casting on beach is difficult. It is better to learn on a pond or river. That said I learned in the surf because that's the only water I have local. OPST is the leader in this space. They have big followers and big detractors. It is a good starting place but may not be where you end up. Spey is a journey. My advice is don't start it. I have flyfished for 50 years and with a 2 hander only the last 5 years. I own more rods and reels that I know and in last 5 years bought 5 2 hand rods and have nearly put away my singles. I'm a 2 hand junky and the "tug" is the drug. It is like the first hit of crack cocaine...you'll be back! That said you just don't need spey for the beach. You need the best overhead casting tool be it single or 2H and spey techniques can be very useful like it is easy to left line off the water with a snake roll regardless of what tool and line you are using. If you want to fish a river you need to know the character of the fishery at the time you fish. The clearwater right now is clear low and slow perfect for skating bombers and lil wangs to steelhead if there were about 75% less fishermen on it. The Trinity is deeper right now with classic runs and perfect for a floating line or a slow sink polyleader for muddlers under the surface or intruder.

So let's say you settled on a opst head choosen by using the opst online line chart for you weight and length of rod. A skagit head is always fished with a tip while a scandi ead is fished with a polyleader or very long mono tapered leader. MOW is the classic skagit tip and come floating, T8, 11, 14, 17 based on T8 at 8 grs/ft, T11 @ 11 grns /ft. giving you an idea of sink ability like a 1/6oz vs. a 3/8oz lead sinker. Then to fill in the gaps from floating to a solid 10ft. of T8 you get the funny stuff like 10ft. tip that is 5ft. of T8 and 5ft of inter.. Some people buy tip wallets with an aray of tips to fish any situation. Some guys are just dedicated to skating flies on top and only own floating tips. OPST on their charts recommend tip length based on grains of comando head and rod length and weight. Pick yout tip based on those charts. https://pureskagit.com/pages/line-chart

Can you use an opst head on the beach? Yeah you can. Personally I don't think it is better than a rio OBS line but we all fish different ways. OPST heads are short enough that you will have way less problems learning their technique on the beach than you would with a long speyrod and a mid-belly speyline.

 

[Mud&$alt72]

nursed a partially torn rotator on my dominant arm for years by going to DH rods, keeping top hand even with shoulder, slow things down and let the rod do the work, and would suggest a balanced outfit in a suitable weight for the average fish encountered. Well designed long rods have surprising reserve power, my biggest upriver coastal King was a late run fish taken on a 13' 7 wt while swinging a Purple/Orange Intruder on a short T10 head for winter steel, and whereas that rod got seriously bent, the fish eventually came to hand.

What do you mean by a 'balanced outfit'?

 

[Mud&$alt72]

Spey casting on beach is difficult. It is better to learn on a pond or river. That said I learned in the surf because that's the only water I have local. OPST is the leader in this space. They have big followers and big detractors. It is a good starting place but may not be where you end up. Spey is a journey. My advice is don't start it. I have flyfished for 50 years and with a 2 hander only the last 5 years. I own more rods and reels that I know and in last 5 years bought 5 2 hand rods and have nearly put away my singles. I'm a 2 hand junky and the "tug" is the drug. It is like the first hit of crack cocaine...you'll be back! That said you just don't need spey for the beach. You need the best overhead casting tool be it single or 2H and spey techniques can be very useful like it is easy to left line off the water with a snake roll regardless of what tool and line you are using. If you want to fish a river you need to know the character of the fishery at the time you fish. The clearwater right now is clear low and slow perfect for skating bombers and lil wangs to steelhead if there were about 75% less fishermen on it. The Trinity is deeper right now with classic runs and perfect for a floating line or a slow sink polyleader for muddlers under the surface or intruder.

So let's say you settled on a opst head choosen by using the opst online line chart for you weight and length of rod. A skagit head is always fished with a tip while a scandi ead is fished with a polyleader or very long mono tapered leader. MOW is the classic skagit tip and come floating, T8, 11, 14, 17 based on T8 at 8 grs/ft, T11 @ 11 grns /ft. giving you an idea of sink ability like a 1/6oz vs. a 3/8oz lead sinker. Then to fill in the gaps from floating to a solid 10ft. of T8 you get the funny stuff like 10ft. tip that is 5ft. of T8 and 5ft of inter.. Some people buy tip wallets with an aray of tips to fish any situation. Some guys are just dedicated to skating flies on top and only own floating tips. OPST on their charts recommend tip length based on grains of comando head and rod length and weight. Pick yout tip based on those charts. https://pureskagit.com/pages/line-chart

Can you use an opst head on the beach? Yeah you can. Personally I don't think it is better than a rio OBS line but we all fish different ways. OPST heads are short enough that you will have way less problems learning their technique on the beach than you would with a long speyrod and a mid-belly speyline.

This is great stuff, thank you! I have an OBS and a Coastal Quickshooter intermediate for my 7wt right now, which I use in Purdy, along Hood Canal, and under the Narrows. My reasoning behind the going with the Skagit setup is simply being able to cast up against those steep backdrops and trees with out getting hung up. And I thought, maybe it would also be useful for some bigger Steelhead rivers, but my gut is telling me to stick with the SH for the beaches, and when it's feasible, get a TH for that.

 

[Long_Rod_Silvers]

What do you mean by a 'balanced outfit'?

When you hold the rod in your hand (at the point where you'd hold the rod when you're swinging), the rod isn't tip heavy or butt heavy. Essentially, the tip doesn't want to dive, nor does the tip want to rise up - because the amount of weight out in front your hand is similar to the amount of weight behind your hand. e.g. sizing the reel+line to counter the weight of the long rod so that the rod feels "balanced" in your hand, or another way to put it would be to say the fulcrum point is where you hold the rod. If you put a reel that's too light on a long rod, it will feel tip heavy - the tip will always be wanting to drop and you'll constantly be fighting gravity. It will add strain to your arm. visa versa if you're reel is too heavy. Unfortunately, it's a trial and error process to get things close enough. You can do some research - spey pages has some decent info on reel weight and balancing certain better known combos, but it's not something you can look up on the rod makers website what weight reel + line is recommended to balance.

 

[fatbillybob]

This is great stuff, thank you! I have an OBS and a Coastal Quickshooter intermediate for my 7wt right now, which I use in Purdy, along Hood Canal, and under the Narrows. My reasoning behind the going with the Skagit setup is simply being able to cast up against those steep backdrops and trees with out getting hung up. And I thought, maybe it would also be useful for some bigger Steelhead rivers, but my gut is telling me to stick with the SH for the beaches, and when it's feasible, get a TH for that.

Skagit will get you casting with trees and steep walls right at your back. My world was overhead casting. Seeing spey blew my mind! Some of the most famous "how to's" on fishing steelhead are still 100% relevant today the 3M series with Lani Waller. It was all using singlehand rod. I have fished 2H rods from 10'7" to 15'6". Waller never liked 2H rods and would not fish anything longer than switch length. To paraphrase....He says that the reason we fish with flyrods is because of the feel and feedback they give to the fisher. Why would anyone want to fish with a long spey rod that feel like fishing with a tree trunk? Having fished with 2H rods from 10'7" to 15'6" I believe Lani Waller is 100% correct. I now fish with nothing longer than switch length and the shortest rod I can get away with wins. I have spent many days fishing single on flats boatsd in Florida double haul. It really beats up your body. I'm old now and weak too. I have the same accuracy with less effort casting or pain with a 2h rod optimized for overhead and an OBS line on flats boats or off the beach. I got 4 halibut this morning in an hour. Guides say the clearwater is a big river and 14ft rods are recommended. I was just there last week fishing my 12'3" 7wt. and I could put my fly anywhere I wanted. So far I have never caught steel past 80ft. and my line control is lame past 80ft. 100% of my fish are caught on the short side of 80ft. 80ft. is what any decent caster can do with a single.

 

[clarkman]

Skagit will get you casting with trees and steep walls right at your back. My world was overhead casting. Seeing spey blew my mind! Some of the most famous "how to's" on fishing steelhead are still 100% relevant today the 3M series with Lani Waller. It was all using singlehand rod. I have fished 2H rods from 10'7" to 15'6". Waller never liked 2H rods and would not fish anything longer than switch length. To paraphrase....He says that the reason we fish with flyrods is because of the feel and feedback they give to the fisher. Why would anyone want to fish with a long spey rod that feel like fishing with a tree trunk? Having fished with 2H rods from 10'7" to 15'6" I believe Lani Waller is 100% correct. I now fish with nothing longer than switch length and the shortest rod I can get away with wins. I have spent many days fishing single on flats boatsd in Florida double haul. It really beats up your body. I'm old now and weak too. I have the same accuracy with less effort casting or pain with a 2h rod optimized for overhead and an OBS line on flats boats or off the beach. I got 4 halibut this morning in an hour. Guides say the clearwater is a big river and 14ft rods are recommended. I was just there last week fishing my 12'3" 7wt. and I could put my fly anywhere I wanted. So far I have never caught steel past 80ft. and my line control is lame past 80ft. 100% of my fish are caught on the short side of 80ft. 80ft. is what any decent caster can do with a single.

There's a reason I prefer fishing SHers...