Another WDFW WTF South Fork Skykomish

doublespey

Let.It.Swing
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I'm still scratching my head on this one. WDFW is closing the South Fork Skykomish above Sunset Falls July 1st.

The falls are impassible to anadromous fish, but they're trucking "native" Summer Chinook up there (where they are -not- native) as part of the recovery plan.

I personally don't care if they truck em or not. But moving Skykomish Summer Chinook to an area of the river where they wouldn't be without WDFW's intervention and then using that as an excuse to close the river is a new low, even for them.

I'm guessing their justification is part of a "Feed the Orcas, Screw the Fishermen" initiative but am not certain.

Somebody help me make sense of this! :unsure:
 
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I'm still scratching my head on this one. WDFW is closing the South Fork Skykomish above Sunset Falls July 1st.

The falls are impassible to anadromous fish, but they're trucking "native" Summer Chinook up there (where they are -not- native) as part of the recovery plan.

I personally don't care if they truck em or not. But moving Skykomish Summer Chinook to an area of the river where they wouldn't be without WDFW's intervention and then using that as an excuse to close the river is a new low, even for them.

I'm guessing their justification is part of a "Feed the Orcas, Screw the Fishermen" initiative but am not certain.

Somebody help me make sense of this! :unsure:


If they wanted to feed the Orcas they stop allowing salmon to be netted in the ocean.

It makes perfect sense when you come to the realization that the only people WDFW are willing to screw over are sport hunters and anglers.

Yes I'm black and white yes I am myopic and inflexible..

I'm also right..
 
If they wanted to feed the Orcas they stop allowing salmon to be netted in the ocean.

It makes perfect sense when you come to the realization that the only people WDFW are willing to screw over are sport hunters and anglers.

Yes I'm black and white yes I am myopic and inflexible..

I'm also right..
A-G-E-N-D-A
 
It is an odd thing to do if the goal is more fish. I can't say that it is helpful. Not all stakeholders have that as the only goal.

I would caution anyone against assuming that because anglers have a negative emotional response to the decision that he decision at WDFW made with similar emotion towards/ against them. The decision was likely made because it is quite simply the path of least resistance. It occurred to me a long time ago that most west side fish "management" is made via the path of least resistance.

This path begins with "piggybacking" on the tribes chinook harvest plan. It ends with decreased freshwater angler opportunities due to a number of factors including tribal influence, federal permtting of fisheries, and litigous NGO's looking for another way to sue WDFW. It's easy to call WDFW out on this. It's easy to see them as the "bad guy". It is far more difficult for me to look at the regulatory framework and the stakeholders involved and chart a different course for WDFW to take. If change is to happen, I believe that changing that regulatory paradigm is what needs to happen.

At this point the very thought that WDFW is managing any west side fishery is humorous. The department is clearly just trying to find a way to have any season for any anadromous fish but only after securing saltwater salmon seasons (chinook). WDFW is the department of salmon. The thing is, that the salmon that they are the department of is 51% owned by another entity.

I write this not because I think that any of the criticism of WDFW is wrong. It's all fairly spot on albeit incomplete. My belief is that it is super important to understand the "why". Understanding the reasons why the path of least resistance is closing sportfish angling should inform any of the actions taken by the 4 or 5 people lobbying the department. Lobbying for a change in the departments actions can only be succesful if preceded by a change in the current permitting paradigm. That means that there will be losers. I think the obvious loser would be the saltwater salmon angler. Maybe there is a way to change the paradigm where that is not the case. I have a hard time seeing it though.

As an aside, I saw that King salmon fillets at Pikes Place market was being sold for $80/lb. Some other shops had it for less but it was still priced similar to gold. There has been a reduction in commercial harvest and it can be seen. It's not a 100% elimination but there certainly has been a decrease in saltwater harvest.
 
It is an odd thing to do if the goal is more fish. I can't say that it is helpful. Not all stakeholders have that as the only goal.

I would caution anyone against assuming that because anglers have a negative emotional response to the decision that he decision at WDFW made with similar emotion towards/ against them. The decision was likely made because it is quite simply the path of least resistance. It occurred to me a long time ago that most west side fish "management" is made via the path of least resistance.

This path begins with "piggybacking" on the tribes chinook harvest plan. It ends with decreased freshwater angler opportunities due to a number of factors including tribal influence, federal permtting of fisheries, and litigous NGO's looking for another way to sue WDFW. It's easy to call WDFW out on this. It's easy to see them as the "bad guy". It is far more difficult for me to look at the regulatory framework and the stakeholders involved and chart a different course for WDFW to take. If change is to happen, I believe that changing that regulatory paradigm is what needs to happen.

At this point the very thought that WDFW is managing any west side fishery is humorous. The department is clearly just trying to find a way to have any season for any anadromous fish but only after securing saltwater salmon seasons (chinook). WDFW is the department of salmon. The thing is, that the salmon that they are the department of is 51% owned by another entity.

I write this not because I think that any of the criticism of WDFW is wrong. It's all fairly spot on albeit incomplete. My belief is that it is super important to understand the "why". Understanding the reasons why the path of least resistance is closing sportfish angling should inform any of the actions taken by the 4 or 5 people lobbying the department. Lobbying for a change in the departments actions can only be succesful if preceded by a change in the current permitting paradigm. That means that there will be losers. I think the obvious loser would be the saltwater salmon angler. Maybe there is a way to change the paradigm where that is not the case. I have a hard time seeing it though.

As an aside, I saw that King salmon fillets at Pikes Place market was being sold for $80/lb. Some other shops had it for less but it was still priced similar to gold. There has been a reduction in commercial harvest and it can be seen. It's not a 100% elimination but there certainly has been a decrease in saltwater harvest.


If you get punched in the face over and over again by the same person it doesn't matter what their emotional state towards you is..
You're still the punching bag.
 
If you get punched in the face over and over again by the same person it doesn't matter what their emotional state towards you is..
You're still the punching bag.
I understand that.

I think the similar analogy that I would use is that you keep getting punched in the face by the same fist. Upon further inspection, it is clear that you are being hit by a limp weak man that is being thrown about by a couple of people who give it just enough food and water to stay alive but not enough to fight back. The power and the action is dictated by other people who are not the fist that is hitting you. They hide behind that body as it continues to bludgeon you. This limp body suffers from stockholm syndrome and can't see any different way to behave but to be used by it's captors.

It's reasonable to want that limp body to stiffen up and not be a pawn. You've been fighting this body as well but it only has served to weaken it, decreasing it's willingness to get away from the people whipping it around for their own purposes. Having no control over he body or the people using it as a puppet, your defense has been renderred useless.

My thought would be to try and give the limp, lifeless body some food and water so that they can fight back and not be used to hit you in the face anymore. Maybe it's even better to wrestle it away from it's captors. It's hard because the weak body only knows the safety of it's captors and like a modern day Patty Hearst sees the world through their captors eyes now.

My analogy isn't uber-great but I think that it attempts to represent the weakness that defines WDFW right now.

I miss PS summer steelheading. I really miss it a whole lot. It's awful that it alongwith SRC fishing has been all but eliminated. In order to have a realistic chance to ever fish for them again there needs to be a recognition as to why and who push for the closures to the streams that they live in. The why and the how need to be changed in order to change what happens.
 
I understand that.

I think the similar analogy that I would use is that you keep getting punched in the face by the same fist. Upon further inspection, it is clear that you are being hit by a limp weak man that is being thrown about by a couple of people who give it just enough food and water to stay alive but not enough to fight back. The power and the action is dictated by other people who are not the fist that is hitting you. They hide behind that body as it continues to bludgeon you. This limp body suffers from stockholm syndrome and can't see any different way to behave but to be used by it's captors.

It's reasonable to want that limp body to stiffen up and not be a pawn. You've been fighting this body as well but it only has served to weaken it, decreasing it's willingness to get away from the people whipping it around for their own purposes. Having no control over he body or the people using it as a puppet, your defense has been renderred useless.

My thought would be to try and give the limp, lifeless body some food and water so that they can fight back and not be used to hit you in the face anymore. Maybe it's even better to wrestle it away from it's captors. It's hard because the weak body only knows the safety of it's captors and like a modern day Patty Hearst sees the world through their captors eyes now.

My analogy isn't uber-great but I think that it attempts to represent the weakness that defines WDFW right now.

I miss PS summer steelheading. I really miss it a whole lot. It's awful that it alongwith SRC fishing has been all but eliminated. In order to have a realistic chance to ever fish for them again there needs to be a recognition as to why and who push for the closures to the streams that they live in. The why and the how need to be changed in order to change what happens.


You're a lot more subtle than I am.

I say punch commercial fishermen in the face... Use the Pacific fleet to protect our natural resources. Our f-18 jocks need practice.. even if those fishermen are flying a red flag with a star.
 
I understand that.

I think the similar analogy that I would use is that you keep getting punched in the face by the same fist. Upon further inspection, it is clear that you are being hit by a limp weak man that is being thrown about by a couple of people who give it just enough food and water to stay alive but not enough to fight back. The power and the action is dictated by other people who are not the fist that is hitting you. They hide behind that body as it continues to bludgeon you. This limp body suffers from stockholm syndrome and can't see any different way to behave but to be used by it's captors.

It's reasonable to want that limp body to stiffen up and not be a pawn. You've been fighting this body as well but it only has served to weaken it, decreasing it's willingness to get away from the people whipping it around for their own purposes. Having no control over he body or the people using it as a puppet, your defense has been renderred useless.

My thought would be to try and give the limp, lifeless body some food and water so that they can fight back and not be used to hit you in the face anymore. Maybe it's even better to wrestle it away from it's captors. It's hard because the weak body only knows the safety of it's captors and like a modern day Patty Hearst sees the world through their captors eyes now.

My analogy isn't uber-great but I think that it attempts to represent the weakness that defines WDFW right now.

I miss PS summer steelheading. I really miss it a whole lot. It's awful that it alongwith SRC fishing has been all but eliminated. In order to have a realistic chance to ever fish for them again there needs to be a recognition as to why and who push for the closures to the streams that they live in. The why and the how need to be changed in order to change what happens.

WDFW is.an irrelevant agency. They excel at the lowest quality put and take lake that is essentially managed for a circus opener experience intended to sell licences. And they don't even do that particularly well. I've never seen an organisation that makes it so difficult to give them money.
 
I appreciate your thoughtful response Charles. I know that the dept needs to meet # goals for Chinook - that and political factors (comanagers, etc) are the drivers for this and other closures. What bothers me is that other stakeholders are consulted (commercials, tribes) while it seems the existing standard is to just crap on sports fishers and then let the Commissioners be the punching bag for those angry enough to attend their meetings. Our 'rights' to fish for sport on sustainable populations of fish in our rivers is given no apparent value.
 
I appreciate your thoughtful response Charles. I know that the dept needs to meet # goals for Chinook - that and political factors (comanagers, etc) are the drivers for this and other closures. What bothers me is that other stakeholders are consulted (commercials, tribes) while it seems the existing standard is to just crap on sports fishers and then let the Commissioners be the punching bag for those angry enough to attend their meetings. Our 'rights' to fish for sport on sustainable populations of fish in our rivers is given no apparent value.
I agree with everything that you have written and more. The current paradigm, which WDFW has some responsibility for, dictates that our (trout/ steelhead anglers) needs are last. There is another thread on the same subject here where Smalma speaks to the issues as well. I think that I pretty much agree with that post (its the last one).

The thing is that not all sportsmen are created politically equal. Flyfishermen are not the elite of the WA fishing world. We come in far below most other user groups.

Consider the amount of concessions given to the treaty tribes in return for any saltwater salmon season in PS. That is the reason that there is this closure and a Nooksack closure and a Stilly closure. The tribes would prefer you not fish. They would prefer that no one fish but them. I understand why. Hell, the State of WA kept them from fishing as long as possible too. Now due to the way permits are gained for more influental fishing groups the tribes have hte power to stop it. They may not even need to, as these fisheries probably require monitoring that he state is not going to try and fund for a handful of flyfishermen.

In choosing to piggy back on the tribal permit (which is a bogus permit IMO) for chinook impacts in the sound, the state has essentially ceded any other oportunity that the tribes seek to control. If there is to be change, then the state needs to "go it alone" when getting that permit. I think that politics presently tends to dictate that his is not done. It is now a lot easier for the Feds and for the executive for WDFW to use the tribal permitting process. It's a rubber stamp that is provided only to he other co-manager. In order to access it, we pay. Guess what? WE don't matter as much as the guys with the big boats.

Tangental political thought: This is the point where having one political party be so much stronger than the other really leads to a lack of representation. I really wish that the minority party would forego the Don Quixote act and fight some battles that show themselves to be the adults in the room. (end political discussion)

To put a finer point on it, look to the Skagit. There, it took the state to attempt to gain the permit through clearly legal channels. The state did albeit after considerable prodding from a bunch of old white guys in rubber pants. Throughout the process of getting the state to represent non-salmon anglers it became clear that tribal buy in was required. This buy in was directly tied to salmon since the tribe could also use impacts in their spring king and that all importand sockeye fishery. Once tribal buy in was achieved, the politics could not and would not get in the way of what should have been normal permitting. WFC et al. got to limit the fishery abve the Dalles, but overall did not have too much to sue on because the permit was through the feds and factually it met the requirements. If the Upper Skagit chose to oppose the permit/ season does anyone think that it would have opened? In fact, I doubt it gets submitted for federal review if the state did not see the tribes as being for it as well.

To change the power structure, the state would need to get their own permit to conduct fisheries for salmon in the puget sound. To do so may cause the tribes to object. What's the chance that any permit of plan get approved by the feds (NOAA/ NMFS) without tribal buy in? I would not even bet my dog on approval and that dog is below average. Shoot, I can't even put him in a boat.

So, until someone finds a way to change that permitting paradigm, nothing changes. People can hate on WDFW. They probably deserve a lot of it. But complaining is just pissing in the wind. I'm 49 years old. My prostate is not the super soaker type that is required to piss in the wind. I'd rather find a way to piss with the wind at my back.
 
I appreciate your thoughtful response Charles. I know that the dept needs to meet # goals for Chinook - that and political factors (comanagers, etc) are the drivers for this and other closures. What bothers me is that other stakeholders are consulted (commercials, tribes) while it seems the existing standard is to just crap on sports fishers and then let the Commissioners be the punching bag for those angry enough to attend their meetings. Our 'rights' to fish for sport on sustainable populations of fish in our rivers is given no apparent value.
Thank you and Charles Sullivan for nailing this subject. Oregonians are having the same issue, now facing hatcheries shutting down. I and many others fish for sustenance, but it is becoming harder to do so.
 
WDFW is.an irrelevant agency. They excel at the lowest quality put and take lake that is essentially managed for a circus opener experience intended to sell licences. And they don't even do that particularly well. I've never seen an organisation that makes it so difficult to give them money.
The sad thing is they've got some awesome people especially the steelhead focused people.
 
I'm still scratching my head on this one. WDFW is closing the South Fork Skykomish above Sunset Falls July 1st.

The falls are impassible to anadromous fish, but they're trucking "native" Summer Chinook up there (where they are -not- native) as part of the recovery plan.

I personally don't care if they truck em or not. But moving Skykomish Summer Chinook to an area of the river where they wouldn't be without WDFW's intervention and then using that as an excuse to close the river is a new low, even for them.

I'm guessing their justification is part of a "Feed the Orcas, Screw the Fishermen" initiative but am not certain.

Somebody help me make sense of this! :unsure:

I'd just go head and fish it anyway. Get into any trouble just get it jammed up in the courts for a few months till My Main Amendment becomes the LAW. Couple appeals to buy time in the courts. MY MAIN AMENDMENT is gonna be forced into law in the coming months.
 
I'd just go head and fish it anyway. Get into any trouble just get it jammed up in the courts for a few months till My Main Amendment becomes the LAW. Couple appeals to buy time in the courts. MY MAIN AMENDMENT is gonna be forced into law in the coming months.
Ok now you're scaring me a bit. I'm not sure I want to live in the Republic of Godking Jim Travers, lifted above the law by his Main Amendment.
 
The beuaty of My Main Amendment is that it is intended to benefit me above all but therefore let's everyone else gain from the law as well!!!
 
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