Tungsten

SpawnFlyFish

SpawnFlyFish

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As some of you know, we produce Spawn Slotted Football Beads, which are made of tungsten. We also produce Spawn Fathom Beads also tungsten, designed to replace pouring jigs and bring slotted bead functionality into the jig-tying world. That brings up a bigger question we’ve been thinking about: At what point does tungsten price itself out of fly tying? Our latest production quotes for beads have seen another significant jump, and it’s something we’re extremely concerned especially with upfront costs on production.


We’re curious to hear your thoughts as fly tiers.
 
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What would be the alternatives?
 
chrome/22 said:
What would be the alternatives?
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We have been exploring but run into issues. The football shape requires precision machining, which is why tungsten is used. Brass beads are typically cold-formed, a process that only works for standard round shapes. If we machined brass for something this small and detailed would also be costly. On top of that, brass has significantly lower density, meaning less weight and a slower sink rate. We also explored tin but it isn’t a strong alternative either. It’s even less dense than brass and much softer, making it less durable especially for a bead that relies on maintaining its shape.
 
Bismuth-tin alloy?
 
SpawnFlyFish said:
As some of you know, we produce Spawn Slotted Football Beads, which are made of tungsten. We also produce Spawn Fathom Beads also tungsten, designed to replace pouring jigs and bring slotted bead functionality into the jig-tying world. That brings up a bigger question we’ve been thinking about: At what point does tungsten price itself out of fly tying? Our latest production quotes for beads have seen another significant jump, and it’s something we’re extremely concerned especially with upfront costs on production.


We’re curious to hear your thoughts as fly tiers.
Click to expand...
I will continue to use standard (and slotted for jig hooks) round tungsten beads.
 
SpawnFlyFish said:
As some of you know, we produce Spawn Slotted Football Beads, which are made of tungsten. We also produce Spawn Fathom Beads also tungsten, designed to replace pouring jigs and bring slotted bead functionality into the jig-tying world. That brings up a bigger question we’ve been thinking about: At what point does tungsten price itself out of fly tying? Our latest production quotes for beads have seen another significant jump, and it’s something we’re extremely concerned especially with upfront costs on production.


We’re curious to hear your thoughts as fly tiers.
Click to expand...

This wouldn't help with the cost of tungsten by weight, but what about forming the beads as a composite using tungsten powder and resin? Seems like a molding process would be cheaper in comparison to machining. Based on some past experiments I've messed around with using tungsten powder and 2-part epoxy, I'd say the result should be plenty durable with minimal density loss. That was for a completely different application though (some here might remember me falling into that rabbit hole a while back :rolleyes:.)
 
SilverFly said:
This wouldn't help with the cost of tungsten by weight, but what about forming the beads as a composite using tungsten powder and resin? Seems like a molding process would be cheaper in comparison to machining. Based on some past experiments I've messed around with using tungsten powder and 2-part epoxy, I'd say the result should be plenty durable with minimal density loss. That was for a completely different application though (some here might remember me falling into that rabbit hole a while back :rolleyes:.)
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Wondering if adding color at this point might also result in a more durable, chip-resistant finish....and possibly an added selling point.
 
SilverFly said:
This wouldn't help with the cost of tungsten by weight, but what about forming the beads as a composite using tungsten powder and resin? Seems like a molding process would be cheaper in comparison to machining. Based on some past experiments I've messed around with using tungsten powder and 2-part epoxy, I'd say the result should be plenty durable with minimal density loss. That was for a completely different application though (some here might remember me falling into that rabbit hole a while back :rolleyes:.)
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I hadnt thought about that, Ill check this out too! This is why I figured posting wasn't a bad idea rabbit holes are where you find some good ideas haha!
 
SilverFly said:
This wouldn't help with the cost of tungsten by weight, but what about forming the beads as a composite using tungsten powder and resin? Seems like a molding process would be cheaper in comparison to machining. Based on some past experiments I've messed around with using tungsten powder and 2-part epoxy, I'd say the result should be plenty durable with minimal density loss. That was for a completely different application though (some here might remember me falling into that rabbit hole a while back :rolleyes:.)
Click to expand...

I thought a lot of the cheaper tungsten beads were made from tungsten powder? It's been a few years since I've really been in the euro-nymphing weeds.
 
I think the original question is completely legitimate… considering the hackle craze 15 or whatever years ago, this is like that but slightly more significant demand from another group.

Point is, I bought a decent back supply to keep me busy for a bit, not forever but figured buy some now and the beads won’t go bad. Hope it smooths out for everyone’s sake
 
I want to start by saying I am a huge supporter of fly Shops, and try to buy all my materials from a local shop. I haven't had a fly shop that carried fly tying supplies in my town until just recently. Because of that I ordered mostly online, and mostly from a fly shop in the western U.S.

I will say, tungsten beads at fly Shops are ridiculously priced. I have not bought many beads from fly Shops for a long while now. 20 beads for ~$9 is crazy. That is almost $.50/Bead! I hate to do it, but you just can't beat amazon for beads. Most 50 packs are ~$16, lowering it to $.32/Bead, and if you buy in 100 packs they are ~$22, or $.22/Bead. 200 packs are available even, dropping the cost to $.185/bead. I should say this is based on a 3.0mm bead, and I realize the price goes up for larger sizes (and down for smaller sizes). They have all the colors and sizes, and are delivered to your doorstep usually overnight, or at most two days later. I have not noticed any difference in fish catching since using off brand slotted beads from Amazon.

But, I do hear your concern. The Amazon prices have recently gone up as well, and there are not as many next day shipping options...might be more like a 5 - 7 day wait. Still though, I can be patient to save myself around $.25/Bead.

Will tungsten price itself out? It would be a while for me. If you look at the cost of a, say, sz. 14 tungsten jig Duracell fly your looking at $3.80/fly. The other materials for that pattern are relatively cheap, and i know mine won't fall apart after a couple fish, so it would take a lot for me to not tie them for myself, even if I did end up paying $.50/Bead. And, I prefer to tie my own patterns rather than fish the same ones everyone else is fishing. Plus, I would guess the fly cost will go up as the bead cost goes up.

I mostly fish dry dropper in the summer, maybe i'll do an experiment this year and see if my fish catching changes with brass beads. I have a ton of those that I basically just stopped using once tungsten came out. However, while brass beads are still cheap, I can't find any slotted ones, so that limits tying on jig hooks...

Probably not the answer you were hoping for, regarding purchasing on Amazon, but I just can't bring myself to pay extra for beads that don't change the flies that catch fish for me.

Out of curiosity, do you think tungsten beads catch more fish? Another way of asking that would be: before tungsten beads, did we catch less fish? Or did the introduction of tungsten beads make it easier for people to catch fish? Do tungsten beads make us better fisherman? As mentioned above, this makes me curious, and I might do some self investigating this summer to see what a life without tungsten beads looks like!
 
James St. Clair said:
I want to start by saying I am a huge supporter of fly Shops, and try to buy all my materials from a local shop. I haven't had a fly shop that carried fly tying supplies in my town until just recently. Because of that I ordered mostly online, and mostly from a fly shop in the western U.S.

I will say, tungsten beads at fly Shops are ridiculously priced. I have not bought many beads from fly Shops for a long while now. 20 beads for ~$9 is crazy. That is almost $.50/Bead! I hate to do it, but you just can't beat amazon for beads. Most 50 packs are ~$16, lowering it to $.32/Bead, and if you buy in 100 packs they are ~$22, or $.22/Bead. 200 packs are available even, dropping the cost to $.185/bead. I should say this is based on a 3.0mm bead, and I realize the price goes up for larger sizes (and down for smaller sizes). They have all the colors and sizes, and are delivered to your doorstep usually overnight, or at most two days later. I have not noticed any difference in fish catching since using off brand slotted beads from Amazon.

But, I do hear your concern. The Amazon prices have recently gone up as well, and there are not as many next day shipping options...might be more like a 5 - 7 day wait. Still though, I can be patient to save myself around $.25/Bead.

Will tungsten price itself out? It would be a while for me. If you look at the cost of a, say, sz. 14 tungsten jig Duracell fly your looking at $3.80/fly. The other materials for that pattern are relatively cheap, and i know mine won't fall apart after a couple fish, so it would take a lot for me to not tie them for myself, even if I did end up paying $.50/Bead. And, I prefer to tie my own patterns rather than fish the same ones everyone else is fishing. Plus, I would guess the fly cost will go up as the bead cost goes up.

I mostly fish dry dropper in the summer, maybe i'll do an experiment this year and see if my fish catching changes with brass beads. I have a ton of those that I basically just stopped using once tungsten came out. However, while brass beads are still cheap, I can't find any slotted ones, so that limits tying on jig hooks...

Probably not the answer you were hoping for, regarding purchasing on Amazon, but I just can't bring myself to pay extra for beads that don't change the flies that catch fish for me.

Out of curiosity, do you think tungsten beads catch more fish? Another way of asking that would be: before tungsten beads, did we catch less fish? Or did the introduction of tungsten beads make it easier for people to catch fish? Do tungsten beads make us better fisherman? As mentioned above, this makes me curious, and I might do some self investigating this summer to see what a life without tungsten beads looks like!
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No this is great. Fly shops like ours appreciate this and appreciate the fact you look to shop locally and regionally and took the time to give us feedback. We monitor this sort of thing on Amazon and on Temu all the time and this is part of what leads me to the concern. Its nearly impossible to compete with some of those sellers in terms of price competitiveness. We can negotiate pricing a bit during the manufacturing process but it is always based on order size. Making the upfront costs large and we wont see profits for long periods of time if sales drop due to retail price increases. Especially cause most of the beads we produce are all on the larger side. Slotted brass unfortunately isn't an option otherwise we would have already produced runs of them and we are currently exploring some alloys!

I would say with my experience where tungsten becomes a value add to fishing is where you want to fish in the water column. I generally fish a floating line and Im not always a fan of sink tips so I take the same few patterns on the water but different bead sizes to ensure I can fish all levels. Im sure I would catch fish still but what I do right now works exceptionally well.

Again, this feedback is awesome and I truly appreciate you!
 
I can't catch a fish without a bead, haha. Brass sucks, too light and they tarnish. Beads that break are so frustrating. I don't know where my tolerance limit is, but I don't mind paying for a quality bead that won't break and stays shinny. I just wish I didn't hang so many in the trees, especially before I really get a chance to fish with it!
 
Tungsten is obviously heavier then lead, but back in the day we used to tie a lot of patterns on small lead head jigs and caught plenty of fish. Lead probably isn’t the perfect solution but it might give your customers alternative buying options to tungsten.
Some places offer 100 packs of smaller lead jigheads on Mustad 32833BLN hooks for $60. I’ve used those hooks on a number of species and they’ve worked very well. $0.60 including the hook seems very reasonable.
SF
 
Tungsten is ideal for lake patterns designed for indicator presentations. Brass beads work too, but I like that I can use smaller tungsten versions when I want a slim profile. Tungsten is also better for tying balanced flies where the bead is on a straight pin out in front of the hook eye.

Most of my spending on tying stuff is the consumables like beads, hooks, and tippet. I have certainly noticed price increases but I haven’t changed my purchases.
 
SurfnFish said:
FYI- I thought I had made a purchase from The Flyfishing Place through Amazon until I talked to the actual shop owner Jeff at the lake and found out it was a phony seller who'd he been trying to stop using his shop's name to no avail.
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Amazon is a shit show, we used to be a large player in that space in 2018-2021. People change the names of products, descriptions and sell under phony names all the time. Its a horrible shopping experience and place to sell anymore. At one point it made up about 60% of our revenue. Now it makes up less than 1.
 
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