I wonder why?

wetline dave

Steelhead
So many people like these very fast rods that seem to becoming the norm. I find no great advantage using them. As for distance I can get the same distance with a medium action as I can a fast action, somewhere around 85 feet. Far more than what I consider a real fishing distance. I can do the same with old glass rods like Conlons that i fished for years.

I find little to no advantage in wind as if the wind is too much I have better things to do. In the wind it is technique that is required.

Distance is determined by line speed, i.e. energy transmitted to the line with a cast and imparted by a rod. If a rod can develop the energy to throw a line 85 feet it makes no difference the action of the rod, only that it can produce the necessary energy.

.So why do you think these really fast and stiff rods are so great?

Dave
 

Salmo_g

Legend
Forum Supporter
I'm not a fan of stiff, fast action rods either. But I think they have their place. Casting distance is determined by more than line speed. I'm pretty sure that casting distance is determine by mass x acceleration - friction. So a heavier line experiencing the same acceleration as a lighter line will cast farther. This might be one reason 3 and 4 wt rods are not used for distance casting. Because higher acceleration can be achieved with a fast action rod, fast rods can generally outperform medium action rods under windy conditions.
 

Northern

Seeking SMB
Forum Supporter
I agree with Salmo, but also this:
Most newer casters I see - particularly men, and especially if they have previous spincasting experience - tend to try to muscle the cast to increase distance. That is, harder & faster. You cannot make a slow rod work that way, but you can kinda make a fast one work.
In trying to teach casting, I've found medium fast rods to be more forgiving of mis-timing, with the extreme lightness of those modern rods also letting the newbie feel the load more easily than a heavier glass or slower graphite.

Personally, I love the easy feel of my glass and IM6 rods, and I don't feel like there's a huge distance difference with the same line matched with a best-fit rod of either the fast or slow kind. Took a fast 8wt to Christmas Island for bones and ended up fishing my BAG almost the entire trip instead.

That said, the faster Helios 3D blows all my other rods out of the water for accuracy. Dry fly, sink tip, giant popper...they all go right where I envision them. It's almost cheating.
 

nwbobber

Steelhead
Forum Supporter
I'm certainly not the best caster or an expert on a lot of different rods, but I have couple of fairly slow Powell rods of late 80's early 90's vintage and some faster rods of more recent vintage, and with those I think I can make a bit tighter loop with the faster rod. It may be just my perception but it seems like an advantage if you are trying to get a cast under an overhanging tree for instance. Not that I am any good at that. That's one of the reasons I tie my own flies. Cause they are going to end up in that tree.
 

Rob Allen

Life of the Party
Hmmm where to start?

Definitions as I use them.

Fast. A fast rod is a rod that recovers from flexing quickly
Stiff.. a rod that requires more energy to bend or line weight to bend
Flex how the rod bends tip flex, mid flex etc

Taper how the rod is designed is it a fast taper or a slow taper..

Flex. I like rods that bend more in the butt than the tip. For this distinction I am referring to the rod as though it were a 2 piece.. tip and butt.

Speed. I like rods that recover from bending quickly
I like rods that are moderately stiff

Taper I like rods that tend to have a slowish taper and made of mixes of medium and high modules materials.

Rods like this will tend to be called medium fast.


The worst rods I have cast recently were fast action fast taper tip flex rods. Looking at you orvis clearwater..

I'd much rather have a stiff broomstick that bends evenly that a horrible tip flex POLE.

The main reason I cast long distance is to test rods out. Most rods cast ok at fishing ranges to to see how a rod really performs I cast it at extreme ranges with a double taper line. If I can cast a whole double taper and still maintain a good loop I know I'll be happy with it at fishing ranged..
ALSO. I need to feel the rod loading with just the leader out the tip top..

The last thing I look for is the loop quality..
The bottom leg of the loop needs to be flat. No sign waves allowed.. if you bottom leg of your loop isn't straight there's a problem.. sometimes it's the rod sometimes it's the caster..


Hmmm. I think that's it...
 

Islander

Life of the Party
I fish a fast rod about 90% of the time. The reason being I’m fishing lakes with full sink lines 90% of the time and they seem to work best for me dragging those heavy ropes up from the depths and chucking them back out. Now for the other 10%, if I’m dropping a hopper near a weed bed or in a open spot in some lily pads, I’ll use a medium action with a flex tip.
 

VAGABOND

Life of the Party
Forum Supporter
Exactly what you presented in writing is the reason I moved away from Sage. Loved them for years but when I began the need to over line them I said enough already. That and the fact I felt I was paying an exorbitant fee for their rods (marketing). One, actually two of the reasons I fell back in love with fiberglass.
 

Salmo_g

Legend
Forum Supporter
Most newer casters I see - particularly men, and especially if they have previous spincasting experience - tend to try to muscle the cast to increase distance. That is, harder & faster. You cannot make a slow rod work that way, but you can kinda make a fast one work.
Yeah, I meant to add that new casters, and people who have fished a long time but never learned how to cast well, often like stiff fast action rods. I think the theory is that if you whip the rod back and forth fast enough and hard enough, then you can compensate for poor casting technique. This is what some poor casters have admitted to me anyway.
 

Buzzy

I prefer to call them strike indicators.
Forum Supporter
....people who have fished a long time but never learned how to cast well, often like stiff fast action rods. I think the theory is that if you whip the rod back and forth fast enough and hard enough, then you can compensate for poor casting technique. This is what some poor casters have admitted to me anyway.
Ouch.
 

Tallguy

Steelhead
Because that stiff, fast "6 wt" rod can best huck your way too big flies all the way out there in any conditions using only 1 back cast with that 9 wt super short dense WF line also labeled as a 6 wt. One small step away from lobbing a lead weight out there with a spinning rod. Plus they keep your back cast ever so slightly higher off the ground behind you.

I truly prefer fishing slower deep flex rods and pushing some line out there with actual fly casting, multiple back casts and all, but I do typically fish an ultra fast stiff rod when I want to bomb long streamer casts out there. I can cast a bit further with it than my slower options. I am pretty guilty of the poor technique, use too much muscle and speed faults though.

I have noticed that getting older mandates some technique development, just to prevent your arm flying off one day on an overly enthusiastic cast. I have to be more careful with casting technique to prevent repetitive stress injuries during salmon season.
 

jaredoconnor

Peabrain Chub
Forum Supporter
The term "fast" is extremely poorly defined. In my experience, most "fast" rods flex more at the tip and less elsewhere. The main advantage of this is that it allows you to make tighter loops and can be more accurate, because the limited flex of the rod results in a smaller and (hopefully) better controlled arc.

I only think tight loops are desirable for fishing with light flies (ie. dry flies), in certain circumstances (ie. distance and wind). Despite what a lot of folks believe, fast rods and tight loops are suboptimal for most heavy rigs; open loops are often mandatory, sometimes to the point of using Belgian casts. If anyone refutes this, look into Kelly Galloup's rationale behind the Echo Streamer X rods; he specifically made a point about them not being "tip flex".

On a separate topic, euro rod action is still a developing area. Most high end rods are extremely "fast"; the tip is basically the only part that bends and it is extremely soft. However, David Arcay advocates for moderate action rods and he is a 3 time world champion.
 
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Rob Allen

Life of the Party
The term "fast" is extremely poorly defined. In my experience, most "fast" rods flex more at the tip and less elsewhere. The main advantage of this is that it allows you to make tighter loops and can be more accurate, because the limited flex of the rod results in a smaller and (hopefully) better controlled arc.

I only think tight loops are desirable for fishing with light flies (ie. dry flies), in certain circumstances (ie. distance and wind). Despite what a lot of folks believe, fast rods and tight loops are suboptimal for most heavy rigs; open loops are often mandatory, sometimes to the point of using Belgian casts. If anyone refutes this, look into Kelly Galloup's rationale behind the Echo Streamer X rods; he specifically made a point about them not being "tip flex".

On a separate topic, euro rod action is still a developing area. Most high end rods are extremely "fast"; the tip is basically the only part that bends and it is extremely soft. However, David Arcay advocates for moderate action rods and he is a 3 time world champion.


That's what I was trying to get at

Fast can mean stiff
It can mean it recovers fast
It can mean it tapers fast

Each one of these can describe rods of extreme dissimilarity.

You can have a slow rod with a fast taper. You can have stiff rods with a slow taper
You can have stiff rods that recover slowly
 

Shad

Life of the Party
My experience has been that no rod rewards poor casting practices much more than any other; a good caster gets more out of any rod action.

All other things being equal, you should use a rod that suits your natural casting speed. If your casting stroke is slow and relaxed, you will likely enjoy the action of something like glass or bamboo, while if you do a lot of short hauling and directed shooting, a "faster" action (high modulus graphite or similar) might fit the bill better.

I have developed preferences for different actions, depending on what various fishing situations prescribe. In the "pure" sense, I like slower to medium action rods, but if I need to punch a larger (or heavier) fly into wind or a tight window with limited backcasts, give me something "faster," please.
 

clarkman

average member
Forum Supporter
Yeah, I meant to add that new casters, and people who have fished a long time but never learned how to cast well, often like stiff fast action rods. I think the theory is that if you whip the rod back and forth fast enough and hard enough, then you can compensate for poor casting technique. This is what some poor casters have admitted to me anyway.

:LOL:

That cracks me up only because whenever one of these fast action/ultra tight loops type of threads pops up I think back to one day when I was fishing the salmonfly hatch probably 15ish years ago on the Deschutes. I was watching this one gentleman (ok he was probably in his 30s) who seemed to know what he was doing....until I watched him fishing a nice stretch of bank water. This one particular lie he was trying to hit, he threw probably 30 false casts (probably underselling that number) before actually presenting his fly....all thrown with super tight loops on his ultra fast action rod that never bent further down than the top section of a 4pc rod. I'm sure the guy was a fantastic caster....fisherman? ehhhhh, not totally sure. Maybe more data points are needed, but I chuckled (maybe too loudly, I dunno) as I walked on and fished some good water that day.
 
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Tom Butler

Grandpa, Small Stream Fanatic
Forum Supporter
At 60, and having been working on my casting for a couple years now, I find the better my casting mechanics, the slower the rod I like, especially on the river. Bamboo, the Steffen glass, the Recon model, and my old sage GFL. I like the somewhat less stiff carbon XL for ESN. In the tube on a lake I prefer to fish the faster rs4 with sink tips and full sinks for better shootability with a short backcast. I got that fast Clearwater model for throwing indicators from shore with short backcasts on windy days, and it's better than the other rods at that.
 
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Rob Allen

Life of the Party
Not sure I should say this but the whole rod to match the casting stroke thing.... it's a myth. Love casting ultra fast rods with a super slow long casting stroke.. Doh! Even with short heavy lines..

I like snake rolling Skagit heads with sink tips.... we'll that's actually a lie. I hate casting Skagit heads but I do it anyway and snap tees, perry pokes. Yeah they are for after you screwcup :)

Figures I might as well get all that out at once.. mostly the first " paragraph " is what I was aiming for...
 
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