Difference Between a Redside & Redband Rainbow Trout?

Peach

Stillwater Fanatic
I think this is a primarily Oregon question, but can anyone explain the difference between a Redside Rainbow Trout which is found in the Deschutes River System and a Redband Rainbow Trout which are native wild fish located in most rivers systems East of the Cascades?

The ODFW mentions if you catch a wild native Rainbow Trout East of the Cascades, it is most likely a Redband. The wild Rainbow Trout from the Metolius, Crooked, Klamath Lake, Williamson, Blitzen, and McKenzie River are all Redbands.

Seems to me that the Redside kind of another subspecies of the Redband that is found on the Deschutes. Are there Redsides that are in other systems besides the Deschutes?

Is location the only distinction between the two or is there any visible physical differences between the two?

Peach
 

Mike Cline

Life of the Party
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Robert Engleheart

Life of the Party
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Apparently there are several variations in two major groups, the Columbia redbands of which the Deschutes strain would be in and the interior redband which there are Goose Lake, McCloud and other varieties. I’m no biologist but here’s what I found.
 

Mike Cline

Life of the Party
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There are seven subspecies of rainbow trout that fall within the Redband Forms group out of a total of 14 documented subspecies. The following table from Wikipedia.
Columbia River redband troutO. m. gairdneri (Richardson, 1836)Found in the Columbia River and its tributaries in Montana, Washington and Idaho. Anadromous forms are known as redband steelhead.
Oncorhynchus mykiss ssp. gairdneri.jpg
Columbia River redband trout
O. m. gairdneri
Athabasca rainbow troutO. m. spp., considered by Behnke as a form of O. m. gairdneri, but considered a separate subspecies by biologist L. M. Carl of the Ontario Ministry of Resources, Aquatic Ecosystems Research Section and associates from work published in 1994.[12]Distributed throughout the headwaters of the Athabasca Riversystem in Alberta
McCloud River redband troutO. m. stonei (Jordan, 1894)Native to the McCloud River, upstream of Middle Falls, and its tributaries in Northern California, south of Mount Shasta.
Sheepheaven Creek redband troutO. m. spp.Native to Sheepheaven Creek, Siskiyou County, California. Sheepheaven Creek redband were transplanted into Swamp Creek in 1972 and 1974 and into Trout Creek in 1977.
Great Basin redband troutO. m. newberrii (Girard, 1859)Native in southeastern Oregon and parts of California and Nevada on the periphery of the Great Basin.
Eagle Lake troutO. m. aquilarum (Snyder, 1917)Endemic to Eagle Lake in Lassen County, California.
Kamloops rainbow troutO. m. kamloops strain(Jordan, 1892)Native to several large British Columbia lakes, particularly Kamloops Lake and Kootenay Lake. Known for its very large size.
 

GAT

Dumbfounded
Forum Supporter
Many, many moons ago I talked with the regional ODF&W fish biologist that was assigned The Deschutes. I asked him if a "redside" was a specific species of a rainbow or redband trout and he said no. Redside is something the anglers began calling the redband trout they caught in the river. Basically a slang term for the fish.

I see the same trend is starting on The McKenzie. I guess if you want, you could start calling all rainbow and redband "redsides" because they do all have some manner of a red side.
 

clarkman

average member
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I dunno all of the accepted semantics of it, but I do know that the Great Basin subspecies of rainbow trout are highly adapted to a wider range of water temperatures based on district bio conversations.

I guess I'm going Redside & Redband fishing tomorrow.... 🤷‍♂️ ....rather, I'm hoping for those as by-catch to my short-fin grayling fishing.

I do know this though, this isn't going to be anywhere near the realm of things I'm going to lose sleep over.
 

HauntedByWaters

Life of the Party
I am not sure with trout but I know with salmon the term Evolutionarily Significant Unit (ESU) is used and it is useful. Don’t think of it as a different species because it isn’t, but it may phenotypically look different due to separation and different environmental factors. These differing rainbow trout types are the more dramatic cases of an ESU.
 

Peach

Stillwater Fanatic
Got it. Seems like to me for whatever reason, folks that fish the Deschutes have to be different & elite and categorgize their trout as special & unique :).

Not a suprise considering some how some folks consider the Deschutes as some kind of holy grail. Maybe not as snobish as those that fish the Metolius as they only catch "Redbands" on the Met, but close. Joking, well kind of :). This coming from a low life Stillwater Fly Fisher, which has only Hosmer Lake to offer for fish that are pristine and PhD level fish. Hosmer used to be like this, until they stocked it with Costal Cutties, no thanks, not much of an improvement over the Alantic Salmon they used to stock in there. The Cranebows and Brookies in there are a bit more difficult but fun to catch.


Fun Fact: Maupins High School Mascot is a Redside - but their school colors are Green and Gold - go figure.

1679430477162.png
 

GAT

Dumbfounded
Forum Supporter
Hosmer was right up there with The Met as a flyfishing only fishery ... until the population of Bend exploded and the lake became a popular spot for paddlers and swimmers.... then the last nail in the coffin ... they gave up on the unique land-locked Atlantic Salmon.

So the pristine lake became crowded, noisy and stocked with fish that are not unique in the least. I don't remember the last time I fished Hosmer.
 

Mike Cline

Life of the Party
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I am not sure with trout but I know with salmon the term Evolutionarily Significant Unit (ESU) is used and it is useful. Don’t think of it as a different species because it isn’t, but it may phenotypically look different due to separation and different environmental factors. These differing rainbow trout types are the more dramatic cases of an ESU.
The terms Evolutionary Significant Unit (ESU) and Distinct Population Segment (DPS) are essentially synonymous and are scientific contrivances that came out of the Endangered Species Act (ESA) enforcement policies. Although the ESA was enacted in 1973, it wasn’t until 1991 that scientists and EPA policy makers adopted the ESU and DPS concept to help protect (list) species and subspecies that otherwise didn’t meet original ESA enforcement criteria. The fundamental idea that a DPS or ESU is treated as a distinct species or subspecies under the law is biologically (Biological Taxonomy) not supported by science, but rather by bureaucratic edict. The criteria to designate any population as an ESU or DPS is very broad and rife with interpretation. As with all things governmental, the ESU and DPS concepts have seen their challenges and drawbacks in both the field and in the courts.

The bottom line however is: That trout or salmon you caught may be a member of a DPS or ESU, but as a species or subspecies it is what it is, regardless of what the bureaucrats say it is.
 

HauntedByWaters

Life of the Party
The terms Evolutionary Significant Unit (ESU) and Distinct Population Segment (DPS) are essentially synonymous and are scientific contrivances that came out of the Endangered Species Act (ESA) enforcement policies. Although the ESA was enacted in 1973, it wasn’t until 1991 that scientists and EPA policy makers adopted the ESU and DPS concept to help protect (list) species and subspecies that otherwise didn’t meet original ESA enforcement criteria. The fundamental idea that a DPS or ESU is treated as a distinct species or subspecies under the law is biologically (Biological Taxonomy) not supported by science, but rather by bureaucratic edict. The criteria to designate any population as an ESU or DPS is very broad and rife with interpretation. As with all things governmental, the ESU and DPS concepts have seen their challenges and drawbacks in both the field and in the courts.

The bottom line however is: That trout or salmon you caught may be a member of a DPS or ESU, but as a species or subspecies it is what it is, regardless of what the bureaucrats say it is.

I agree with that. I think that ESU is an attempt to differentiate these populations of the same species because there can be so much variability. Is there a better word because it sounds like in your opinion neither “species” nor ESU are correct? Is it “sub-species”?
 

Mike Cline

Life of the Party
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I agree with that. I think that ESU is an attempt to differentiate these populations of the same species because there can be so much variability. Is there a better word because it sounds like in your opinion neither “species” nor ESU are correct? Is it “sub-species”?
ESU/DPS is a contrivance. Species/Subspecies is Biologic Taxonomy. ESA (the Act) allows listing/delisting by either species or subspecies. For any given population that may have been given ESU/DPS status, that population may be treated as either a species or subspecies for listing purposes based on factors other than taxonomy (morphology, genetics, etc.), irregardless of the real species/subspecies taxonomy. It is highly independent on the particular species under consideration. For practical purposes however, identification of individuals in any given population, it is Species/Subspecies that is important, not ESU/DPS status. “Because there is so much variability” is not a valid point. Two Coho salmon, one caught in Alaska and one caught in the Central California Coast ESU are still genetically the same Oncorhynchus kisutch.
 

HauntedByWaters

Life of the Party
ESU/DPS is a contrivance. Species/Subspecies is Biologic Taxonomy. ESA (the Act) allows listing/delisting by either species or subspecies. For any given population that may have been given ESU/DPS status, that population may be treated as either a species or subspecies for listing purposes based on factors other than taxonomy (morphology, genetics, etc.), irregardless of the real species/subspecies taxonomy. It is highly independent on the particular species under consideration. For practical purposes however, identification of individuals in any given population, it is Species/Subspecies that is important, not ESU/DPS status. “Because there is so much variability” is not a valid point. Two Coho salmon, one caught in Alaska and one caught in the Central California Coast ESU are still genetically the same Oncorhynchus kisutch.

Thank you!

I realize that these are the same species. I have an MS regarding these matters. However, this thread topic is an example of the variability I am talking about. It may not be genetically distinct species and I don’t think anyone is arguing that, but two fish populations can have enough variability externally that they get a different common name, and that is something, and that is this discussion.
 

Bakerite

Steelhead
Forum Supporter
The biologist for Eastern Oregon (not central) told me that only the fish in the Great Basin were true redsides, not having any Steelhead, so the Wallowa, Powder, Imnaha etc. don’t have Redsides even if the fish in the Powder no longer have ocean access.
 
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